Posted on 12/20/2005 3:01:37 PM PST by Aussie Dasher
What is the total number of canonized saints? Does anybody know?
I appreciate this comment.
I have seen your arguments before, most of which are found in the writings of Loraine Boettner’s "Roman Catholicism" published in 1962, and expounded upon by Chick Publications, Lumen Productions, C.U.R.E., Harvest House, and Bob Jones University Press, to name a few.
I've never heard of Loraine boettner, Lumen Productions, C.U.R.E., or Harvest House. I've heard the name Bob Joes, although I'm not really familiar with anything he's said and I'm slightly familiar with who Jack Chick is although my familiarity is just having seen some of his stuff posted one place or another...but he seems too extreme for my tastes...that is, too much one size fits all.
Most of the assertions have been addressed through various scholarly apologetics, and the original writings of the Council of Trent, and subsequent scholarly endeavors since. Most of the arguments were not based upon the beliefs of the Church, but of beliefs about the church, not based upon the teachings or traditions of the church.
Over the years I've seen quite a bit of discourse on both sides of the issues. Some (from both sides) was valid, some was invalid and much was really inconclusive (in my opinion).
Though I do not agree with you, or you with me, I am glad that you have found Jesus Christ, and wish you a Merry Christmas.
What a wonderful way to finish. That we find ourselves in relationship with Jesus regardless of the path is really the important thing. God bless and Merry Christmas to you as well.
No ... simply the scriptures.
What you think you "need" is unimportant. What is important is what God has given you, because he knows much better than you what you need.
Now, as to your question: Jesus Christ is the one mediator with the Father. But all Christians are supposed to mediate for each other before the throne of Christ and through him to the Father, which is why Paul in several places asks others to pray for him. Evidently, he didn't think of the Christian faith as "Jesus and Paul alone", so why do you think of it as "Jesus and Senor Zorro alone"?
Not a problem. The word "saint" simply comes from a Latin root meaning "holy" or "holy one". All Christians are holy. At the very least, they are set apart and dedicated to God by their baptism, even if they lead very unrighteous lives, and "set apart and dedicated to God" is one definition of "holy".
So, yes, indeed, all Christians are saints. But nothing about that precludes us from recognizing some Christians as having exhibited especially heroic holiness in their lives. Protestants do it all the time -- we just had a seemingly endless series of "brave and noble heroes of the Reformation" threads on the religion forum -- they just don't use the word "saint" to particularly designate such people.
We appear to be in complete agreement here.
So, yes, indeed, all Christians are saints. But nothing about that precludes us from recognizing some Christians as having exhibited especially heroic holiness in their lives. Protestants do it all the time -- we just had a seemingly endless series of "brave and noble heroes of the Reformation" threads on the religion forum -- they just don't use the word "saint" to particularly designate such people.
I don't hang out in the religion forums here...they seem to be pretty argumentative, but I'll take your word for it. And personally, I don't have a problem with the pope (or anyone else) giving a tip of the hat to someone whose life was well spent. I don't generally focus on the reformation...my focus would be more on people such as William Carey or Hudson Taylor as fine examples. If what the pope is doing is the same sort of recognition I have no problem with it...although setting aside the title "saint" is misplaced scripturally. One thing I would question is the requirement for documented "miracles" as part of the process. I'm not personally aware of specific miracles performed at the hand of William Carey, for instance, but I doubt that anyone could dispute that he was well used by God in all the work he accomplished.
Sheesh, how ignorant of meanings can one get? The Catholic Church doesn't state that the one's declared by the Church as Saints are the be-all and end-all of all saints? These are just the ones who are known and are put up as role-models. The Church acknowledges there to be others, that's why you have all Saints day for the "unknown warriors". Sure, you two may be among those people. If you pass away without everyone knowing you are a saint, no big deal, you have got your reward. If people DO get to know about your life and deeds, think of the inspiration it would be, THAT's why we have Catholic saints.
"TOM CRUISE is taking a lot of s**t for belonging to a religion, Scientology, that believes aliens came to this planet 75 million years ago.
That is nothing.
I was raised Catholic. We believe Mary was a virgin and Jesus ended up walking on water, creating a bottomless jug of wine and rising from the dead
-Dennis Leary
You're living in a glass house there bud.
The Catholic Church doesn't state that the one's declared by the Church as Saints are the be-all and end-all of all saints? These are just the ones who are known and are put up as role-models.
Then they should call them role models. Scripturally, all believers are saints.
Merry Christmas.
C,
aside from the insult, I believe you are wrongl;kj
Precisely. He gave me ONE savior, ONE high priest, and ONE sacrifice--this suffices. I don't need your rosaries, your saints, or your priests. I need Christ--and I have him.
Overall, I think you very much miss my point. I am not saying that I don't want others' help (with Christ on my side, I will go without it if necessary), but I am saying that it is downright wrong to pray to dead saints pleading for intercession (see previous points). So, it is nice to have others praying for you and I know I have people praying for me, but not strictly necessary. I do not deny the efficacy of prayer by man (for it is written: "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16 b), I deny the efficacy and the holiness of praying to man. Note one important thing about your own example: Paul asked those living to pray for him, not those who were dead.
"In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?" Psalm 56:4
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
" A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?" "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field." Isaiah 40:6
" Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16 (emphasis mine).
well, I disagree with your interpretation of words, but I'll leave it at that (note: read up on misinterpretation of words in the early councils, especially wrt the Assyrian, Armenian and Coptic churchs and also the filioque). Merry Christmas to you too. Christo Rei!
You do if you want them to make idols...err...statues of you to worship...err...I mean hear their intercessions.
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