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To: Virginia-American
Finding an ERV in both orangutans and chimps that was not also present in gorillas and people would disprove the currently-accepted family tree of the primates.

You might find this study interesting. How about an ERV found in chimps, gorillas, baboons and macaques but not found in orangutans, siamangs, gibbons or humans?

Have a look at this outline of the primate phylogeny as deduced from human-ERV studies : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/retrovirus.gif

Then consider that the primate-ERV studied is found in Old World Monkeys, not in gibbons or orangutans, and then in gorillas and chimps, but not in humans ... The primate phylogeny from the human perspective doesn't exactly jive with the same phylogeny from the Old World Monkey perspective. We know that not every ERV found in both gorillas and chimps is also found in humans, we just don't know the how's and why's yet.
447 posted on 12/12/2005 11:11:05 PM PST by so_real ("The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
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To: so_real
You might find this study interesting. How about an ERV found in chimps, gorillas, baboons and macaques but not found in orangutans, siamangs, gibbons or humans?

"Eichler and colleagues found over 100 copies of PTERV1 in each African ape (chimp and gorilla) and Old World monkey (baboon and macaque) species. The authors compared the sites of viral integration in each of these primates and found that few if any of these insertion sites were shared among the primates. It appears therefore that the sequences have not been conserved from a common ancestor, but are specific to each lineage."

450 posted on 12/12/2005 11:21:10 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: so_real; Virginia-American; dread78645; js1138; PatrickHenry
"Finding an ERV in both orangutans and chimps that was not also present in gorillas and people would disprove the currently-accepted family tree of the primates."

You might find this study interesting. How about an ERV found in chimps, gorillas, baboons and macaques but not found in orangutans, siamangs, gibbons or humans? [...] Then consider that the primate-ERV studied is found in Old World Monkeys, not in gibbons or orangutans, and then in gorillas and chimps, but not in humans ...

Sorry, but this is apples-and-oranges.

Virginia-American was speaking of shared ERVs which have the characteristics which show that they are due to a single insertion event (i.e., are monophyletic). If any of these would be found in a pattern (across lineages) which is grossly "out of whack" with other evolutionary indications of phylogeny, in a way that can't be reconciled, this would indeed be a severe problem for evolutionary theory.

The paper you link, however, is about *polyphyletic* patterns (i.e., ones which clearly entered different parts of the primate "tree" at different times during different infection invents) of a specific ERV among primates, and as such is not the kind of potential "killer" for evolutionary theory that a mismatch in a *monophyletic* ERV would be.

As the paper mentions, it does raise some interesting questions which researchers are seeking answers for, but most conceivable answers to those questions will pose no challenge to evolutionary theory (nor require any modification to it).

Of course, this was already pointed out to you when you linked the same study in an earlier thread.

694 posted on 12/13/2005 1:31:48 PM PST by Ichneumon
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