Posted on 12/08/2005 5:37:35 PM PST by sharkhawk
A plane has apparently crashed through a fence at Midway airport in Chicago. Southwest airline 737 plane now sitting in intersection of 55th and Central. Channel 7 has confirmed, fire and ambulances on way. Details still sketchy.
13 with no gusts? I agree, not a factor unless a strong component of it was a tailwind-- and that's not likely.
What would be the required altitude/airspeed to abort a landing? I'd think that could be done with anything down to the recommended airspeed and 50' altitude; is that correct?
Hey, that's Indian "fry bread," pulleez. But it is a PITA to make, if you're like me and don't like to deep fry in the house because of the lingering odors. (I have made a few IT's at festivals as a charity volunteer and smelled like fry bread for a week.)
I think the bread and the pinto beans are probably authentic, but the rest is made-up. They're kind of a Plains Indian "thing" and I'm from a Civilized Tribe, so I like wild grape dumplings better. Same dough, but small pieces boiled in purple grape juice.
You can kind of understand the difference if you go to Anadarko ("Indian City USA") to the Plains Indian Museum (Apaches, Comanches, Kiowas, and so on) and then to PV and points east or south, (Davis, Sulphur) which was the Chickasaw Nation (Ada is still our capital) of the old Indian Territory.
Main difference: we had trees. And stores, shops, houses. They had open range and teepees. "We" are the Chickasaws, Choctaws, Cherokees, Creek and Seminoles. I spent a month one night in PV, so you may want to have more on the agenda, lol!
Muskogee is nice in the spring, though it's a further road trip--they have a pretty Azalea Festival. (Not like the Azalea Trail here, where you moved from - Big H - but "Oklahoma nice.") Redbuds, dogwood, cherries, plum, pears, all very pretty in bloom, all along the way.
Ask around and see if the Peach Orchard in Terral (straight down 81 from you past evil H to the Red) is still open for business. They have always had excellent catfish and ummm, something you should try if you never have before. Calf fries. Rocky Mountain oysters. I like lamb fries much better, but you can only get them in OKC near the cattle yards--or in FW, actually, plus Amarillo.
At Easter, they always have a huge sunrise service in the Wichitas; lots of people go from everywhere. I've never been because I hate Lawton and never spent much time around there to hang out. (Don't know why--can't stand San Antonio, either, and never spend any time there. Just two places on earth that give me a rash, lol.)
1. In the early 1960s, as a result of its finding that Dallas and Fort Worth' each operating competing airports was harmful to the public interest, the U.S. Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) ordered the cities to build a jointly owned airport to serve the area's needs.
2. The cities responded by creating the DFW Board in 1968 and adopting a Bond Ordinance to finance the construction of DFW. As an essential part of the Bond Ordinance, the cities agreed to phase out passenger air service at their two existing airports with commercial service -- Dallas Love Field and Fort Worth's Greater Southwest Airport. The interstate carriers using the Dallas and Fort Worth airports agreed to move their operations to DFW (which opened in 1973).
3. Despite the clear intention of the cities and the cooperation of all other air carriers, Southwest Airlines (which began operating solely intrastate service from Dallas Love Field in 1971) steadfastly refused to move its operations to DFW, leading to a series of long and expensive law suits in the 1970s. Southwest, by arguing that the CAB determinations and Bond Ordinance provisions did not apply because it only served intrastate markets, successfully thwarted the efforts of Dallas, Fort Worth, and DFW to fulfill the Bond Ordinance objective of consolidating passenger service at DFW. As a result of this litigation, Southwest continued to offer intrastate service from Love Field.
4. Shortly after Congress deregulated the airline industry in 1978, Southwest applied for permission to provide interstate service between Love Field and New Orleans, in clear contravention of the intention of the Cities (as set out in the Bond Ordinance). This action threatened yet another round of litigation and controversy regarding Love Field.
5. In order to put an end to the dispute and resolve all legal challenges, Texas Congressman Jim Wright negotiated a settlement among the interested parties. To make it binding, the agreement was codified into the so-called Wright Amendment (section 29 of the International Aviation Transportation Act of 1979). The law allowed Love Field to stay open instead of being closed down to commercial aviation as originally intended.
6. With the agreement of Southwest Airlines, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW Airport Board, and other interested parties, the Wright Amendment allowed the airport to remain open only so long as service would be limited to points in Texas and the four contiguous states. Without this amendment, the city of Dallas would have continued the process of closing Love Field. Since 1979, the only change to the law was the 1997 "Shelby Amendment" to allow service to an additional three close-by states and unrestricted flights on aircraft with less than 56 seats.
7. For the past 25 years, Southwest has steadily developed Love Field into the most highly concentrated single-carrier hub in the nation. It currently operates all the commercial service at Love except for one route operated by Continental Express to Houston with small regional jets. It controls all the active gates except the two used by Continental Express. Over the years, it made it very clear that it never supported the lifting of the Wright Amendment, always saying that it was "passionately neutral" while allowing others to carry the water in opposition to repeal or modification of the law.
8. For years, DFW Airport has offered gates to Southwest to provide as much service as it would like. There has never been a time when Southwest has been unable to provide service from the Dallas-Fort Worth area to any point in the country by using the same airport that all other carriers do. This is even more true today. With the departure of Delta as a major presence at DFW, Southwest could immediately obtain as many gates and facilities at DFW as it has today at Love Field. After studying the opportunity at DFW carefully, however, including incentives offered by the DFW Airport Board, Southwest recently announced that it had again decided not to offer service from DFW.
9. In so doing, Southwest consciously chose to remain exclusively in an airport with limited operations. The concept of limiting the use of local airports is by no means unique to North Texas. Both Washington (D.C) Reagan National and New York LaGuardia airports are restricted to shorter flights in order to allow the financing of larger regional airports. When Denver built its new international airport, it immediately de-activated and later destroyed the runways at the old Stapleton field in order to prevent the type of situation that is occurring in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Similarly, Austin, Texas, also destroyed its old airport when its new replacement airport opened.
10. In the mid-1990s, DFW embarked upon a major expansion project adding a new international terminal and building a state-of-the-art people mover. Public utility bonds which, in turn, are backed by airport revenues have financed this expensive project. As it was in Washington D.C., New York, Denver and Austin, the underlying economics of the bonds assume that DFW will remain the only major airport in the area. The burden of backing the bonds ultimately falls on the air carriers who pay rates and charges for the use of the facility and the costs of the financing.
11. Just as the construction project has neared completion at DFW and all the funding is committed, and the prospect of low cost carriers adding new service from DFW is even more real, Southwest has abruptly changed its stance on the Wright Amendment and has declared that it is "anti-competitive." For the local community the timing couldn't be worse. More than a billion dollars have been poured into new facilities at DFW. But Southwest's proposed change in the law could divert hundreds of flights away from DFW as well as scare off any new entry, and thereby jeopardizes the financial base of support for the bonds used to finance DFW improvements.
12. The Wright Amendment debate is much more complicated than the simple (and inaccurate) notion that Southwest is restricted as to where it can fly. It is not. It has exactly the same opportunities and restrictions as any other carrier to serve the Dallas-Fort Worth market, or anywhere else in the country. Despite this, it now it wants to be able to do what no other airline has ever done - - get Congress to change the rules so that it can exploit its monopoly status at Love Field to become even more entrenched there. At a time when Southwest is the only air carrier - - new or old - - to consistently make a profit, it makes no sense for Congress to hand it an enormous and unprecedented economic windfall.
13. In sum, this is a complicated local issue with lots of history and very high stakes. Congress should certainly not abruptly and adversely affect the largest construction project in Texas, by repealing a law that continues to be supported by the local communities and members of the Texas Congressional delegation. Both the mayors of Dallas and Fort Worth oppose the repeal of the Wright Amendment, as does the DFW Board, which has the fiduciary duty to protect bondholders and the airport itself. Their views should not be second-guessed by others
Great Post!
The SW Koolaid drinkers always try to portray SW as some great white knight.
They bought out the politicians to make LUV anti competitive to anyone else but them, and they prospered for years from that little agreement.
As for the crash, too bad SW doesn't feel the need for auto-braking, they remove that piece of safety equipment from all planes.
The restriction was placed by Braniff and American through congressional support of Jim Wright (then speaker of the house) to keep Southwest from even starting up as an airline.
Oh by the way, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson's husband works for the law firm that writes the bond issues (ie money for the Hutchinson family) so she has a major conflict of interest for this fact alone. The congresswoman that represents the district in which Love Field operates has a conflict as well for family matters. They own all the Hudson news venues at DFW and Love Field. There is only one venue at Love Field there are 8 to 10 at DFW.
85% of the people in a recent poll on this issue done by the Dallas News support the repeal of the Wright Amendment.
Its interesting the day Southwest started service between Kansas City and St. Louis from Love Field, American ticket prices averaged 225.00. The day SWA started service they were miraculously able to lower prices to match Southwests fare of 49.00.
Isn't competition a wonderful thing for those folks wanting to travel at a less than outlandish fare structure?
This isnt the only city in the country that has competition from Southwest and American Airlines. Chicago has O'Hare and Midway Airports, so what makes DFW so special?
They landed downwind.
If you can't land in the first 3000 feet of the runway most operators consider the landing to be beyond the touchdown zone, which would dictate a go-around.
A three degree glideslope is normal. That is also the glideslope angle for runway 31C at Midway. The normal glideslope intercept point for an ILS is about 900 feet down the runway; with the flare the airplane would land beyond that, at about 1500 feet or less. So 200 feet high (250-50) on a 3.0 degree glideslope (about 300 feet/mile descent) would have them landing 2/3 of a nautical mile long, or about 4000 feet long. This added to 1500 is well beyond a normal touchdown zone, about 5500 feet down the 6,520 foot runway. Even with some drastic last-minute corrections after crossing the threshold they would have been way too high to land safely.
Bullet point 11 is pure propoganda used by the pro-Wright faction to scare people into believing repeal of the Wright Amendment will doom DFW airport.
At least in one of my prior posts I gave you and any lurker/reader a pro repeal and an against repeal of Wright.
The Wright Amendment has been a bone of contention since the first time I moved back to Dallas in '81 and it was a bone of contention when I moved from Dallas in '00. Your initial argument against repeal of the Wright agreement was because of a possible increase of air traffic which could lead to more flights out of Love and could pose more of a hazard to surrounding homes, businesses and busy streets.
At a time when Southwest is the only air carrier - - new or old - - to consistently make a profit, it makes no sense for Congress to hand it an enormous and unprecedented economic windfall.
And there it is in a nutshell. SW is the only air carrier consistently making a profit and because they are successful despite the limitations imposed on them by the Wright Amendment, they can't be allowed to become more successful. Success is bad! Convenience for the consumer is bad! We need continuing government interference to make sure all other airline's stay in business instead of them determining why SW is successful.
It never really was about the "danger" to homes, businesses and roads near Love Field now was it? After all, if you were truly concerned for that reason you'd have been worried about Addison which has had accidents involving homes.
I've had Indian taco's three times from three different places. Each time they used pita bread and horror of horrors...pork n beans! Where would I go to get a taste of authentic Indian food? Wild grape dumplings huh? Hmmmm, I might like to try that as long as it wasn't westernized with pita and Welch's jelly.
I'll probably have to wait to do most of my exploring until either my son or my sister come to visit. The home-grown Oklahomans I know aren't interested in exploring the state with me. I really don't know why since Oklahoma has a rich heritage that they should be proud of.
Ask around and see if the Peach Orchard in Terral (straight down 81 from you past evil H to the Red) is still open for business. They have always had excellent catfish and ummm, something you should try if you never have before. Calf fries. Rocky Mountain oysters.
It's still open or was the last time I made a mad rush for the border. It's legendary for its calf fries. Unfortunately calf fries are one of the 'specialty' meats I've never been intrigued enough to sample. I'm the same way with menudo even though there was a time when I was told menudo was the ultimate hangover remedy. Thankfully I've never had a hangover so bad I had to dose it with menudo. Pass the aspirin please.
Lawton is okay. The only reason I'm ever there is because there are medical specialists I go to and Lawton is closer than OKC. Having spent quite a bit of time in Comanche County Hospital, I prefer going there rather than to the City.
Out of all the cities I've lived in I love San Antonio the most. The people were friendly, there was always something going on where you didn't have to be bored and it was so close to the Hill Country that Sunday afternoon drives were fun. I despised living in Austin though even though the terrain around Austin was prettier than around San Antonio.
YOu can abort the landing even till touchdown if you see you are long, you have plenty of speed to go around until you activate the thrust reversers.
'too bad SW doesn't feel the need for auto-braking, they remove that piece of safety equipment from all planes."
Where did you get that information? It seems strange.
There's a video of this beach with a 747 about to land. Amazing how close it is to the ground. The end of the runway is on the other side of the beach, as is shown in the cockpit pic you posted. For those of us that love watching airplanes, that beach is prime real estae.
They don't engage autobraking, and I know that they removed it from some planes. SW strips lots of things from the cockpit. They do, however have a great HUD system that allows them to land in conditions that many other airlines can't.
As for the autobrake, I think the pilot landed too long, with a tailwind that was too high and nothing was going to stop that plane in those conditions. Not sure who was doing the landing on that flight, but it speaks a bit to the SW culture of getting the planes in fast, taxiing fast and getting out fast.
As for the info, lots of airline employee boards where they are discussing it tech wise.
Real good thread here:
http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24518&st=105
Its no secret that Southwest strips the cockpits to save dough, they meet the minimum requirements but don't much go over them.
I never pretented to be anything other than totally opposed to repealing Wright. I am opposed to repealing Wright for many reasons as I have already stated. I didn't post anything "pro" Wright because I'm not pretending to be fair and balanced.
It is obvious that you feel as strongly about repealing Wright as I do against repealing it.
I think that we need to just agree to disagree and move on.
I forgot one thing. Prior to 9/11, AA operated out of 2 gates at Love. They terminated their service at Love after 9/11. What I believe is that those 2 gates are still available for AA to use.
With all the ideas I hear coming from many about how to prevent this from happening, such as crushable concrete at the ends of runways and such, why hasn't anyone thought of the most obvious prevention?
DON'T BUILD ROADS AND BUSINESSES RIGHT NEXT TO AIRPORT RUNWAYS!!!!!!!
Are people so Stuck on Stupid to build and buy property adjacent to an airport without realizing that airplanes land there? I can't remember any airport being built in the middle of a busy business or housing district, but there are sure has been a lot of those business and housing constructions smothering the airports.
Use some common sense, it isn't all that hard.
I was disappointed when you posted the bullet points as it was no longer a debate between you and I and that's what I was enjoying.
No hard feelings I hope?
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