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Why punish the rich for good choices?
Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 12/3/05 | Gregg J. Cavanagh

Posted on 12/03/2005 12:28:17 PM PST by rhema

After reading the Socialist claptrap "Wondering if tax ride goes too easy on rich" (Nov. 20), I was left wondering if I should cancel my subscription to the Star Tribune. I decided to write a rejoinder instead.

Those in favor of soaking the rich cite "ability to pay" as if it were some immutable characteristic, like race or eye color. After all, if someone was lucky enough to be born with more "ability to pay," why shouldn't he or she share with the rest of us poor schlubs who were born without that attribute?

This attitude is fostered by the media's fixation upon the so-called "idle rich" -- those who acquired their wealth through the fortuity of birth. While I question society's claim on the assets of even those people, I can at least understand a philosophy that favors some redistribution of wealth to ameliorate the effects of truly random events.

But for most wealthy people (a class to which I do not belong), their "ability to pay" is the direct result of choices they made throughout their lives. They invested years in getting an education while others settled for entry-level jobs straight out of high school. They worked nights and weekends while others were enjoying happy hour or spending time on the golf course. They saved their earnings while others were buying new cars or big screen TVs or stereos. They invested their savings in start-up businesses or inventions or property or stocks. They steered clear of the temptations of alcohol, drugs, gambling and crime.

Could someone please articulate for me the moral principle that dictates that persons who study harder, work harder, relax less, save more, spend less and invest more should be compelled by government to give their earnings to persons who do precisely the opposite?

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Philosophy; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: classwarfare; socialistclaptrap
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To: Can i say that here?
We never discuss our finances with our friends. They wouldn't understand the connection between the sacrifices we are making and the income that it produces.

Wise choice. For once your friends (and family) find out how well you are doing, they will soon beat a path to your door with an endless litany of hard-luck stories in an effort to mooch some of that hard-earned money away from you.

I try to keep my financial success low-key. I live well but not extravagantly. My wife and I are just as happy having a meal at Applebees than some five-star restaurant and driving a beat-up Nissan (that's paid off) than driving a Mercedes - and we could easily afford one.

You have to understand that most Americans have been conditioned by liberal society to "hate the rich" and assume that wealth was somehow ill-gotten or at the expense of somebody else. My wife and I both come from working class families and the vast majority of our family even today lives on a precarious edge. Nobody in our family went to college, we were all expected to get working class jobs and be happy with that. So there is a lot of envy when family members come to our home and see what they don't have. We certainly don't flaunt it but it is evident when you come into our home that we don't hurt for money. So many of them avoid coming at all or make snide comments.

Personally, I think hatred and envy are self-destructive emotions. I have never in my life hated anybody or envied anybody for what they have. All you need to be successful in America is a positive attitude, a good work ethic and the ability to live below your means while saving and investing the difference. Anybody in America can build wealth on those principles. It's a pity that more don't see that.

101 posted on 12/04/2005 7:02:51 AM PST by SamAdams76 (What Would Howard Roarke Do?)
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To: jmcenanly
More likely, he may have learned that what he did couldn't be done.

If that's what you meant, then that's exactly what I was thinking too.

102 posted on 12/04/2005 8:43:07 AM PST by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans

That's not the point my friend. There are things in life that are worth more than gold. Success is doing what you love to do and being good at it. Additionally, success is sharing it with those you love.

Intellect for many is just as rewarding as having millions.


103 posted on 12/04/2005 9:22:52 AM PST by SQUID
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To: SQUID
Additionally, success is sharing it with those you love.

Yes I know. Bill Gates has given billions to charity.

104 posted on 12/04/2005 9:33:00 AM PST by Dan Evans
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To: brytlea
Hey Susie:
Actually I would love to see those stats also. I am simply highlighting how much I dislike blanket statements.

I've known some very wealthy people who make very stupid decisions. Taking money from clients, taking from special interests to perform certain tasks, stealing from pension funds, fraudulent insurance claims, defaulting on contractual obligations, you name it.

You see, money doesn't make anybody smarter, better or more honorable. Some rich people have gotten rich by screwing many others. Trump will tell you that himself.
I'm not trying to be negative, I simply don't agree with blanket statements.
105 posted on 12/04/2005 9:35:22 AM PST by SQUID
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To: SamAdams76
You have to understand that most Americans have been conditioned by liberal society to "hate the rich" and assume that wealth was somehow ill-gotten or at the expense of somebody else.

That's one reason I don't eat in restaurants anymore. You have no idea what is going through the mind of the people who prepare your food.

106 posted on 12/04/2005 9:37:43 AM PST by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
Well hopefully this will ease your mind, I worked in restaurants for several years and never saw somebody tarnish the food except in the instance that a patron was especially rude to the waitstaff.

Generally, restaurant workers are proud of their food and work hard to make it a pleasant experience (so they can get good tips). But if you abuse the waitstaff, all bets are off!

107 posted on 12/04/2005 9:41:19 AM PST by SamAdams76 (What Would Howard Roarke Do?)
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To: Pukin Dog

You said: Anyone living paycheck to paycheck in America made STUPID decisions. That does not mean that they want to admit it.
***
Totally agree. That said, I have a friend who says that average is pretty stupid. He is right. We don't encourage the extinction of stupidity by rewarding it with other people's stuff.


108 posted on 12/04/2005 9:50:39 AM PST by NCLaw441
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To: SQUID
You see, money doesn't make anybody smarter, better or more honorable.

Bull$hit.

It may not be politically correct to say so, but you are wrong. How many jobs have been provided by poor people? How many poor people contribute to charitable organizations? To be poor in this economy, you have to be somewhat dim witted if not just a lazy bastard.

Just because some bad people are rich, does not mean that money does not contribute to ones ability to be a better person. If money allows for an education, than money DOES make you smarter. If money allows you to contribute to your church, feed a poor person or give someone a job, it DOES make you better and even more honorable.

Talk about blanket statements!

109 posted on 12/04/2005 10:19:05 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
You are an angry person who can't have discourse without attacking personally. I'm sure you are a load of fun during the holidays. Maybe momma didn't give you the love you needed. Anyway, don't look now but, you just agreed with everything I said. I'm sure you will catch on one of these days when your brain catches up with your anger.
110 posted on 12/04/2005 10:33:47 AM PST by SQUID
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To: SQUID
What?

Who did I attack personally? I think you need a nap.
111 posted on 12/04/2005 10:43:12 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Can i say that here?
I would take a grain of salt with what Pukin Dog has to say, my wife is a CPA who owns her own firm and regularly advises people to pay down there mortgage debt as soon as possible and seek out other investments that can generate revenue nad or be tapped in case of an emergency. I am 44 years old and there is nothing like having a boat load of equity in the ole homestead just in case.

Once you get the credit card debt eradicated, look to put away at least 6 months worth of funds in a safe investment and then you can get aggressive in other investments.

Cash flowing out the smallest mortgage is a recipe for disaster in this day an age. Your are young so take advantage of it. TIME IS ON YOUR SIDE!
112 posted on 12/04/2005 11:03:03 AM PST by mr_hammer (They have eyes, but do not see . . .)
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To: SQUID

Yeah, I know stupid people in all income brackets.
susie


113 posted on 12/04/2005 1:51:07 PM PST by brytlea (I'm not a conspiracy theorist....really.)
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To: mr_hammer; Can i say that here?

Whether or not to pay off a mortgage is probably the most controversial question in financial planning. I've talked to various successful and well-respected financial planners and have heard advice to pay off the mortgage; never pay off the mortgage in your personal residence, but be wary of mortgages on investment property (just don't buy much); or buy as much as you can with the biggest mortgages you can get.

I think a lot of it depends on the current value of your house and the mortgage rate you can get. It makes no sense to me to have hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting there doing nothing, when you could have a 5.5% mortgage (4% after tax deductions) and be using that money to generate a conservative 6-8% return.
Of course, that assumes you can afford to pay the mortgage on current income.


114 posted on 12/04/2005 1:53:24 PM PST by speekinout
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To: speekinout
There is also a large emotional component to making these decisions. We live in the home my wife grew up in. We're out in the country w/acreage and have no intentions of ever leaving.

The idea of owning our home outright means A LOT to my wife. Happy wife, happy life.

Additionally, my career field is a bit volitile. While things are going well, our goal is to minimize our monthly expenses. If we have no payments, the stress level in our home drops dramatically when we think about the times when I may not do as well.

As a guy, all caught on the math and the logic, I'm all for doing what makes the most money. As the husband to a woman who values security, I have no problem with fulfilling my wifes needs for security and stability.

115 posted on 12/04/2005 3:01:02 PM PST by Can i say that here?
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To: SamAdams76

I can't recall where I read it, but it was very recently that said the politics of envy are traced to primitive civilizations where envy plays a large role, even spiritually. The examples were the spirits who would kill a good looking or healthy child and thus parents would take certain measures to deflect this envy and that for much of the world the success of one man is not explainable without him causing harm to others.

The 'guilt' we associate with many well-to-do socialists is actually a form of that deflection of envy. It isn't even quite guilt as much as it is a ritualized expression to demonstrate that they are not worthy of envy and to target someone else with the evil eye or some curse.


116 posted on 12/04/2005 3:10:23 PM PST by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: speekinout
We live in a suburb east of Cleveland that has been prospering the past 15 years. The average home in the area is about $350k and is appreciating at around 6% per year.

When poop hit's the fan there is no place like home. It is only a matter of time before a family is hit by a health or career crisis and the home had better be secure.

Ask me how I know this, believe me that's a topic for an entirely new thread.
117 posted on 12/04/2005 3:36:56 PM PST by mr_hammer (They have eyes, but do not see . . .)
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To: Skywalk

It isn't a matter of class warfare or class envy or guilt. It's much more simple than that -- as a country we owe a ton of money. We've spent a ton in recent years and eventually that bill is coming due. The middleclass can't shoulder anymore of that burden. Even cutting entitlements won't help at this point. When the gov't goes looking for money there is only one choice -- the well off.


118 posted on 12/04/2005 3:41:06 PM PST by durasell
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To: durasell

Um, OK, I guess socialism and 'progressive' taxation came about just recently.

(huh?) I was explaining the origin of the politics of envy.


119 posted on 12/04/2005 3:44:43 PM PST by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: Skywalk

Envy is a vice, and not even a very interesting one. I don't think it plays into the tax issue. A lot of people are simply "taxed out." They ain't got no more to give.


120 posted on 12/04/2005 3:48:02 PM PST by durasell
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