Alarming Export: Engineers

EE Times ^ | 11/14/2005 | David Lammers

[add925]

Phase 1: Outsource Manufacturing

Phase 2: Outsource Management

Phase 3: Outsource Ownership

Phase 4: Outsource the Need

This post refers to Phase 2

[indthkr]

"Because of the universal nature of engineering principles, engineering has basically become "commoditized" to the same extent that manual labor has."

You have a lot of good points, particularly wrt widening the scope of one's skills beyond "just engineering".

I would argue however that lawyering skills are far older and more "commodidized" than engineering skills. The difference is that a Legal career in the U.S. has built-in trade barriers due to language, culture, and more importantly Licensing . While large corporations are trying experiments with legal outsourcing, they are barley scratching the surface, and IMO will ultimately fail.

One thing I would point out is the power of the free marketplace for labor with respect to the free marketplace for goods. Basically, in the absence of U.S. tariffs on goods as part of the U.S. goal of a global free market, the top students among the U.S. labor pool have sought-out and achieved built-in trade barriers within their job descriptions. Unfortunately, in our case, we have succeeded in boxing out the producer functions, and retained the zero-sum redistributionists.

[Thunder90]

Russia, the CIS, and China can make weapons, but their economies suck.

[mym]

Really Russia's economics is one of the fastest growing: ~7%/year. China's even faster: ~9%/year.

[Thunder90]

Russia may even eclipse China, because Russia is better developed than China. India is growing faster on percentage rates than both of them combined

[Thunder90]

It is the main reason that the Russians can afford new weapons systems and modernize its military.

[Thunder90]

Russia, the CIS, and China are the only countries with the devices now

[pganini]

Actually Chemical engineers aren't the best paid, it's the electrical/software engineers.

The number of foreign students have been dropping after 9/11 -- about 4-5% annually as well, due to the increase in restriction on their graduate work -- this affects primarily students from China, India, Russia, Israel and Pakistan (they're all on the restricted list on certain topics).

[pganini]

"Why in God’s green earth would you spend 50K on an education, only to work 60 plus hours a week for a paltry 50K, only to be constantly looking over your shoulder for the outsourcing ax to fall. "

Wrong again. The average engineer in Austin Texas is making about $96k. That's the median.

If you're civil engineer, then yes, $50k is about all you can get. If you're EE/Software, then it's much higher. Work load may be hell though, but so are many MBA grad jobs.

[RinaseaofDs]

That's excellent news. Supply and Demand at work, and it also means that the cost of getting things done in China will start approaching the cost of getting it done elsewhere.

[pganini]

That's the reality for mechanical + civil engineers.

However, I graduated with a masters in EE. I think my starting pay was $52k. 7 years later I am now well above $90k and I don't live in the east or west coast.

Engineering does pay, but it depends on the industry. Civil, Mechanical and Aerospace doesn't pay. Chemical + Electrical engineering/Computer Engineering/Computer science do.

[pganini]

The difference is that in China, if you earn $20k a year, that's VERY HIGH income over there. Put it this way, with $100-200 USD per month, you can live pretty well over there, the rest are simply savings/spendings.

It's similar to the situation in Taiwan where 20 years ago, the average semiconductor engineer is about $25k-35k. Now it's more like $60k (USD) per year, not quite as high as the US, but close.

[Flightdeck]

I'm finishing my PhD at University of Texas-Austin right now in engineering, and it's true I am very much a minority, but I have made good friends with the Chinese and Indian students. You just have to make an effort and they will enjoy your company and interaction. I see a bit more arrogance in my Chinese friends than Indian, Korean, or the few Americans; I don't know why.

[Willie Green]

The Bush Administration is hellbent on destroying the domestic market for engineers.
In today's global economy, it is "more efficient" to illegally import illiterate stoop labor.

[Flightdeck]

"Russia and the Former USSR are also generating a lot of top level engineering students."

Yes and no. Their mathematics is as good or better than ours, but the engineering skills are probably a little worse. I have presented papers in Russia at conferences with a few other Americans amongst many Russians. We all took first place in our respective sections, impressing the Russians. They had some good stuff, though.

[Flightdeck]

I agree with the first three of your four points. I don't know about them expecting to work for pennies on the dollar, though, at least not here in the US.

"American engineering is dead, and the attendant innovation that disginguished it..."

I agree our "market share" is not what it used to be, which is only a good thing for us American engineers. Disagree that innovation is dead, however. Strong as ever, where I'm at...

[mr_hammer]

Not up north, the wage scale is really depressed. Let's average it out at 75K. My patent attorney costs me $250.00 an hour and my accountant is at $80.00 per hour. A plumber charged us $390.00 for 3 hours work. Even at a 100K a year that works out to around $52.00 per hour.

[indthkr]

"....but I have made good friends with the Chinese and Indian students."

There are some great people coming over, the vast majority of whom we would be lucky to call our friends and neighbors.

90% of the problem has to do with short sighted thinking, and the economics of pure greed. Also, if National Security implications didn't exist (Military + Long Term Economic Capability), a lot fewer people would have posted replys in this thread.

"....I see a bit more arrogance in my Chinese friends"

This behavior has a lot of Freepers concerned, including some of the most ardant Kool-Aid Drinking FreeTrader's. This arrogance probably stems from Nationalism IMO; others may disagree on this point.

[pganini]

I don't see any plumbers in really nice neighborhoods though.

They get charged hourly, so if they don't get work, they don't get paid. i.e it's a contract job.

[pganini]

I dunno about that, i see equal arrogance in both Indian and Chinese when i was in school. The Indian guys who were into music always tell me "Becuase India has a far advanced culture than the West, there are music structured for different events, mornings/evenings, etc."