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Intelligent Design Grounded in Science
CBN ^ | November 2005 | By Gailon Totheroh

Posted on 11/13/2005 6:07:54 AM PST by NYer

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To: Ichneumon

I'm getting pretty tired of dishonest creationists, sometimes it seems like that's the only kind there is.

Hey now.....I'm trying to be honest. Oh drat! I can't think of a one-liner. :)


241 posted on 11/13/2005 12:47:19 PM PST by moog
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To: Ichneumon
Last time I checked, they couldn't find a single person who personally claimed to have been "converted" in the other direction.

Plenty of Freeper creationists have claimed in the past to have been "converted" from evolution to creationism. Funny thing is, to a man, they fail to be able to state the theory of evolution. They all proudly disavow cartoon versions of it.

242 posted on 11/13/2005 12:49:41 PM PST by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: SubMareener
Yeah, so?

A text can be outlined in a hierarchical manner. Ooh. Ahh...

Sorry, was I supposed to be impressed?

243 posted on 11/13/2005 12:51:27 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: moog
I don't think one can because it is faith-based. I guess it probably depends on the individual as to what one would be and the degree to which scientific knowledge is applied.

The ID as science people don't agree with you, but I'm still waiting for that test... ;)

244 posted on 11/13/2005 12:52:07 PM PST by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: Thatcherite
I was converted from evolution too. I changed my mind when I was five years old:).

I worked in a public library for a few years. We used to have this 4-year-old genius come in. The kid had developed his own theory for the extinction of the dinosaurs. I can't remember what it was (no it wasn't the proliferation of dirty diapers), but it was pretty impressive for a kid that age.

245 posted on 11/13/2005 12:53:41 PM PST by moog
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To: moog
Hey now.....I'm trying to be honest. Oh drat! I can't think of a one-liner. :)

Heh -- okay, there's at least one exception. ;-)

Heck, I barely consider you a "creationist", at least not the strictest sense. In the more broad sense of the word, a lot of evolutionists are also creationists, so clearly there are many varieties under that one definitional umbrella, and you definitely seem in a different category than the ones I'm talking about (i.e. the kind who usually inhabit these threads).

246 posted on 11/13/2005 12:53:53 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Thatcherite
The ID as science people don't agree with you, but I'm still waiting for that test...

Some of us may state that, but for a lot of us, the "test" is one of our faith in it, that being faith in a Supreme Being, being God. Thus, it is not one of science and can never be completely as such. I often say that the complexities of things in nature make me think that it was designed, but such is more of a declaration of faith than being based on tested scientific evidence.

247 posted on 11/13/2005 12:57:09 PM PST by moog
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To: Ichneumon
That's what I figured, but it was a good opportunity for me to get pedantic again. ;-)

I see that the IAPC (International Association of Pedantic Coxcombs) has revoked your certification. Did you get caught perpetuating an ambiguity? Thankfully I'm still a blackguard, and apparently I'm damned too, which always makes my day.

248 posted on 11/13/2005 12:57:15 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: moog

Hey, you're honest, that's no fun. How can I mock you and expose your pathetic falsehoods. [scuffs ground and kicks cat petulantly]


249 posted on 11/13/2005 12:58:52 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: Ichneumon; moog; Thatcherite; edsheppa; Leto; Mr Ramsbotham
I found a pretty comprehensive explaination of IDT at http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4264/ID.html. It contains their idea of what testing a scientific theory means:

Testing

Any good scientific theory is subjectable to testing. Theories that cannot be tested are merely speculation or wishful thinking. In testing for design, three things must be established, contingency, complexity and specification. The flow chart below shows how the testing process works. It is called the explanatory filter8:

  1. Is it contingent? If No, then it is produced by necessity. If Yes, go to 2.
  2. Is it complex? If No, then it is produced by chance. If Yes, go to 3.
  3. Is it specified? If No, then it is produced by chance. If Yes, go to 4.
  4. It is designed.


As you can see, they do not believe God could have created a universe where all that was, is, and will be is necessary. They believe that anything that is simple can be produced by chance, but complex things, e.g., Penrose Tiles can't. From this starting point, it doesn't seem like sce to me.
250 posted on 11/13/2005 1:06:03 PM PST by SubMareener (Become a monthly donor! Free FreeRepublic.com from Quarterly FReepathons!)
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To: Ichneumon
"Heh -- okay, there's at least one exception. ;-) "

Heck, I barely consider you a "creationist", at least not the strictest sense. In the more broad sense of the word, a lot of evolutionists are also creationists, so clearly there are many varieties under that one definitional umbrella, and you definitely seem in a different category than the ones I'm talking about (i.e. the kind who usually inhabit these threads).

I am indeed a strict creationist, I just believe that there are indeed some truth to evolution (as proponents of ID actually are admitting too). My differences are ones of personality--I can insult and poke fun at myself, I don't take myself too seriously, I can respect different beliefs of others without getting into a hissyfit (at least on some issues:), I take an objective approach (or a dumb joke approach) rather than an absolutionist approach, and so on and so on. Learning some things about evolution strengthens my belief in creationism. That doesn't mean I am completely right or regard myself as such. I learn and I adapt at times. I'm not some "expert" nor am I deeply gifted with words. I usually have bigger and better things to worry about rather than how I began. Nonetheless, for some dumb reason, I can't keep off coming to an evolution thread every once in a while.

251 posted on 11/13/2005 1:06:16 PM PST by moog
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To: Thatcherite
"Hey, you're honest, that's no fun. How can I mock you and expose your pathetic falsehoods. [scuffs ground and kicks cat petulantly]"

I don't let myself be mocked, though I think I traveled that fast one time in a jet. I mock myself enough already. I don't need any more help at it:).

252 posted on 11/13/2005 1:09:13 PM PST by moog
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To: SubMareener

e.g., Penrose Tiles can't.

My neighbors name is Penrose. Their flooring was manufactured.


253 posted on 11/13/2005 1:11:34 PM PST by moog
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To: SubMareener

I had a glance through that material and couldn't see anything that looked like an experiment that would have the potential to falsify ID. If ID is consistent with all possible observations then it is perfectly useless. Anyone else see it?


254 posted on 11/13/2005 1:12:45 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: NYer

YEC SPOTREP


255 posted on 11/13/2005 1:40:04 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
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To: Ichneumon

Here are some of the avenues of investigation that ID scientists want to follow:

1. transcendent creation event where all matter, energy, spacetime began (Big Bang)
2. cosmic fine-tuning
3. fine-tuning of Earth's, the Solar System's and the Milky Way Galaxy's characteristics
4. rapidity of life's origin
5. lack of inorganic kerogen
6. extreme biomolecular complexity
7. Cambrian explosion (sudden appearance of most species during same time period)
8. missing horizontal branches in the fossil record
9. placement and frequency of "transitional forms" in the fossil record
10. fossil record reversal
11. frequency and extent of mass extinctions
12. rapid recovery from mass extinctions (mainly through appearance of new species)
13. duration of time windows for different species
14. frequency, extent, and repetition of symbiosis
15. frequency, extent, and repetition of altruism
16. speciation and extinction rates
17. recent origin of humanity (as opposed to common descent)
18. huge biodeposits (needed to sustain humanity)
19. molecular clock rates (which show humanity's recent origin)

I find it perfectly reasonable that they should be able to follow whatever lines of inquiry shows promise. Anybody disagree?


256 posted on 11/13/2005 1:40:29 PM PST by Liberty Wins (Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all who threaten it.)
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To: Liberty Wins
You forgot one:

20. global flooding, 2304 BC (explain lack of evidence)

257 posted on 11/13/2005 1:44:59 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: moog

it is probably fair to call the common ancestors of both modern apes and modern humans "apes"

it is also probably fair to call modern humans "apes"


258 posted on 11/13/2005 1:47:31 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: King Prout
it is probably fair to call the common ancestors of both modern apes and modern humans "apes" it is also probably fair to call modern humans "apes"

It's probably why so many of us go ape over so many things.

259 posted on 11/13/2005 1:49:51 PM PST by moog
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To: moog

amny things make monkeys of men


260 posted on 11/13/2005 1:51:51 PM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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