Posted on 10/02/2005 1:59:20 PM PDT by CedarDave
Some info from various articles in my local paper this morning: (I would direct you to the newspaper's website, however the complete online version is paid subscription only).
1) A state official said the tour boat was operating without a sufficient number of crew members. It should have had an operator and one other crew member when carrying 21 or more passengers. Wendy Gibson, a spokesman for the state Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation said state regulations for commercial vessels like the Ethan Allen would require at least one other crew member.
2) A December 2004 report from the NTSB said the Coast Guard was using an outdated formula to determine the carrying capacity of passenger boats - based on a 1960 average weight of 140 lbs per passenger. Witnesses said most of the passengers appeared much heavier than 140 pounds. (140 lb. average in 1960 is out-of-whack with reality, too, IMO, and probably was outdated in 1960, as well).
Investigators believe a number of factors likely contributed to the accident - wake from at least one other boat, passengers shifting as the boat rocked and the possibility that there may have been too much passenger weight.
The boat was transported to Warren County Airport to be examined by the NTSB.
No damage was found by divers who photographed the boat underwater.
Although original reports said that passengers were seated on lawn chairs, the boat was actually equipped with six benches that were fastened to the deck.
Passengers said that the boat seemed to tilt and the weight shifted.
According to state records, there has never been any prior disciplnary action against Shoreline Cruises.
Captain Paris told investigators that the boat was hit by the wake of another boat.
One article about the pfds says they were readily accessible, however brings up the question of whether they could be considered readily accessible to people who are handicapped to begin with.
If, in fact, there were extra chairs on the boat, I wonder if they might have been put in at the last moment to accomodate a larger person? Just speculation. Just thinking through what could have occurred if the boat's captain realized that because of the size of some of his passengers, extra seating might have been necessary? These group cruises are usually booked in advance. If the agent did not give any indication to Shoreline Cruises that there were special needs people or larger people, they may have grabbed extra chairs at the last moment to try to make passengers more comfortable by allowing each a little more space. Small boat owners often use deck chairs on their boats. As a matter of fact, as I was watching FNC last night, a 40-footer went by with a woman sitting on a lawn chair on the top deck of the boat.
give me a break on the larger people. good grief. chairs can be put on for a lot of reasons including intentionally overcrowding it. that boat is tiny for 45 people. i can only imagine it would barely be above the lake water level when filled. what is scary too is that on a boat this small they had free moving chairs.....one good tilt and the boat would be hopelessly weighted down on one side. somebody screwed up bigtime.
As I explained, it has been recommended that seating probably should be re-examined using a new norm for weight. They had been using the 140-lb. average.
I also explained that the reports of extra chairs being used for seating are not clear yet and that all normal seating areas were benches that were bolted to the floor.
If you want to deny that weight could have been a factor, take it up with those who are fronting the suggestion - the NTSB.
All cruise boats on Lake George have run safely with no incident for a century. As there were many small boats on the lake the other day, it is entirely possible that the boat was hit by more than one wake at the same time. A heavier than average person who might have slid on a bench and lost his or her balance could easily have caused the boat to tilt over and above the rolling caused by the wake of another boat.
And, btw, the 140-lb. average is based on a woman weighing 110 lbs. and a male companion weighing 170 lbs. I'm 5'5" and 130 lbs. I was tall for my generation, but am considered shorter than average by today's standards. Obviously, I am 20 lbs. heavier than the 1960 norm. (But I have big bones *wink*).
Quite frankly, this attitude is why we have so many lawsuits in this country.
We used to let our kids go sledding at the country club in the winter. One year, the parents of a child who got hurt while sledding decided to sue the country club. The country club wasn't at fault, but the parents had to find someone to blame. The country club decided to ban sledding on their hills.
When I was in kindergarten and on the playground one day, a bunch of us were on the merry-go-round, spinning around and having a ball. I slipped and fell under the merry-go-round. The school nurse called my mom to take me home for a change of clothes. If that happened today, parents would immediately sue the school.
If an individual is in a boat on a body of water, they have to be aware that they are taking a risk, however small. I am not trying to excuse anything, but simply point out that we take risks every day. At some point, we have to be at least partly responsible and accountable for ourselves when we take them. My generation seems to be the last one that recognized that fact. /rant off
I just now logged in at work and read your post. I am so sorry to hear of the death of your aunt. My sincere condolences.
Finally found you, my friend.
."as for tipping over in 'calm conditions'; the investigative description does not address whether or not, this craft was being piloted carelessly or not (a situation which a passenger might experience as less than a calm condition). . ."
A properly designed boat with a proper load would be IMPOSSIBLE to overturn in calm water no matter what the captain did or did not do. I believe the investigation will find that for whatever reason, the passengers rushed to one side and with the deck being at the top of the gunwhale, the boat flipped right over - similary poor designs have done just that at dockside, killing thousands.
Oh.... I hate these types of stories. Prayers going up.
I am a personal believer that we should pray/ask our Guardian Angels to watch over us and our families every day.
Could well be the case; and certainly not every boat has the stability of a 'Boston Whaler'; it does not appear, by reports to be an overloaded boat; as well, some of the help crew were not available and so they were in violation of code. . .which is not to say necessarily. . .more lives would have been saved.
Meantime, we will have to wait for the 'rest of the story'. . .
Hi Syn. Haven't been following the thread but I can say that this is just the worst accident ever (in our lifetime at least) on the lake. So very sad.I keep thinking of the times I've taken my small kids on the Minne Ha Ha. Never were we offered a life vest or even told where they were stored.
Oh my, I just loved sledding at the country club. No other place like it!
We lived about a mile north of Lake George Village. (I live in GF now) My cousins and I would take our sleds (the old kind with the runners) and stand at the top of the hill on the sled and holding the reins, we'd push off flying down my father's driveway, into the street, down the hill and around the corner. I think my brother had a close call with a car once. But...that's how we lived life back then - before lawsuits. :)
That's still around 5 tons of mass. way up there. On a small boat like that. How could it not roll over.
>>> The image that has stuck <<<
Then you know what I mean. I know which one your talking about.
Our local excuse for a paper (it's akin to the Post Star) and the FL edition of the NY Post, from Monday, carried this story w/ pictures, AP wire, I believe.
Hello to all in GF.
He said it was "hogwash" that the Mohican's wake could have caused the accident, but I wonder. I stood on the pier at Usher Park last May or June. I was watching my grandson, so I didn't have my eye on the lake. I heard the waves hitting the shore harder and I looked up and out over the lake to see what boat had caused the waves. There wasn't a boat in sight. I don't know if I missed seeing a fast-moving speed boat or if one of the larger cruise boats had come in while I wasn't paying attention. But that would suggest that a boat didn't necessarily have to be near or still within sight of the Ethan Allen to have caused the wake.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
The sister ship is not identical, but is very close in design to the Ethan Allen. It appears that the NTSB is also awaiting information on the actual weight of the passengers, although it would be difficult and perhaps not possible to determine where heavier individuals were sitting.
The Ethan Allen was taken to the Warren County Airport, where NTSB inspectors found no problems with the boat. They are hoping to take it back to the lake this afternoon to perform tests on it.
The Ethan Allen was built in 1966 and was owned by a Connecticut company before being sold to Shoreline Cruises in 1979. Officials are trying to track down records from the previous owners.
You don't even have to put a call in to a lawyer in this lawsuit-happy age. The lawyer calls you. Ironically, some family members of the victims have already stated that they aren't angry at Shoreline Cruises; that they consider it a tragic accident.
Lawyers are saying that they believe Shoreline Cruises has "significant civil liability" and that having 1 pilot on board for 47 passengers is a "legal abomination." Other possible defendants are the Canadian tour company that arranged the cruise and any other municipal agencies or officials involved in those arrangements. Although Shoreline is insured, one lawyer has stated that he thinks it is likely that clients will go after the assets of the cruise company. Of course.
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