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To: betty boop; Right Wing Professor
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements and this very insightful sidebar with Right Wing Professor!!!

RWP, you claim that the boundary which makes chemistry autonomous is this:

Nonetheless, chemistry survives, and is very different from physics, because the whole is more than the sum of its parts. You missed my point!

Physics/math deals with the physical and phenomenal whole - with universals such as physical laws, constants, geometry, mathematical structures and fields. Nothing determined by chemistry can exceed the "whole" of physics/math.

It is that whole into which the "whole" of "matter in all its motions" fits. Matter, for instance, is not yet even established in physics! Ordinary matter, some 5% of the critical density of the universe awaits the yet not found or made Higgs boson/field. And the Standard Model cannot explain dark matter (25%) or dark energy (70%)- thus the physicists even now pursue supersymmetry and extra dimensionality!

So if self-organizing complexity results in emergent properties which calls for new language to describe the autonomous entity (such as a car, water, betty boop) - the entity along with all its properites is nevertheless contained within the "whole" of physics/math.

But physics/math isn't the whole of "all that there is". The overarching principles into which physics/math fits are the subject of philosophy and theology.

Case in point: there is no physical causality in the void from which there is a beginning, e.g. of real space and real time.

It is like a concentric ring structure.

From the inner ring, betty boop is defined by the material contents of a set of space/time coordinates. From the ring of physics, she is defined by her intersection with the universals. But that's not all there is to betty boop! She is also a fractal of what lies "beyond" the "whole" of physics/math.

377 posted on 09/27/2005 11:54:57 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I can't fathom why existence exists, but I am not convinced that science cannot probe the beginning of space and time.

That may seem like a distinction without a difference, but space and time are accessible to science.

Getting back to the Shakespeare analogy, written sentences can be said to conform or not conform to the rules of spelling and grammar. And of course, grammar is a broad concept, particularly when you are discussing 400-year-old writings. But the study of grammar and spelling cannot lead you to Shakespeare.

The study of physics and chemistry cannot set limits to biology, even if it constrains the spelling and grammar of living things.
381 posted on 09/27/2005 12:22:27 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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