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Court Case Threatens to 'Drag Science into the Supernatural'
LiveScience.com ^ | 9/22/05 | Ker Than

Posted on 09/22/2005 8:25:42 PM PDT by Crackingham

A court case that begins Monday in Pennsylvania will be the first to determine whether it is legal to teach a controversial idea called intelligent design in public schools. Intelligent design, often referred to as ID, has been touted in recent years by a small group of proponents as an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution. ID proponents say evolution is flawed. ID asserts that a supernatural being intervened at some point in the creation of life on Earth.

Scientists counter that evolution is a well-supported theory and that ID is not a verifiable theory at all and therefore has no place in a science curriculum. The case is called Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Prominent scientists Thursday called a teleconference with reporters to say that intelligent design distorts science and would bring religion into science classrooms.

"The reason this trial is so important is the Dover disclaimer brings religion straight into science classrooms," said Alan Leshner, the CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) and executive publisher of the journal Science. "It distorts scientific standards and teaching objectives established by not only state of Pennsylvania but also leading scientific organizations of the United States."

"This will be first legal challenge to intelligent design and we'll see if they've been able to mask the creationist underpinnings of intelligent design well enough so that the courts might allow this into public school," said Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), which co-hosted the teleconference.

AAAS is the world's largest general science society and the NCSE is a nonprofit organization committed to helping ensure that evolution remains a part of public school curriculums.

The suit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) on behalf of concerned parents after Dover school board officials voted 6-3 last October to require that 9th graders be read a short statement about intelligent design before biology lessons on evolution. Students were also referred to an intelligent design textbook to learn more information about the controversial idea. The Dover school district earlier this month attempted to prevent the lawsuit from going forward, but a federal judge ruled last week that the trial would proceed as scheduled. The lawsuit argues that intelligent design is an inherently religious argument and a violation of the First Amendment that forbids state-sponsored schools from funding religious activities.

"Although it may not require a literal reading of Genesis, [ID] is creationism because it requires that an intelligent designer started or created and intervened in a natural process," Leshner said. "ID is trying to drag science into the supernatural and redefine what science is and isn't."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; crevorepublic; enoughalready; lawsuit; scienceeducation
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To: RunningWolf
Is any of it here on these boards?

Peer reviewed journals. Some are freely accessible online; most require a subscription. I'd like to change that.

Do your arguments here, your writings here, speak for those of the Scientific community?

I'd say they're an overwhelming majority view in the scientific community, but I speak only for myself.

In one respect, though, I'd say my views are unusual. I believe creationism is not a legitimate part of conservatism. Most scientists tend to link the two, and reject other conservative ideas as a result.

321 posted on 09/26/2005 5:07:34 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Alamo-Girl

> the intelligent design hypothesis - like the theory of evolution - is not a theory of origins.

Hogwash. Either ID explains that life was placed here by some sort of god... or it's a meaningless bit of intellectual drool. What other purpose does it serve?


322 posted on 09/26/2005 5:20:38 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Dark Knight

> So you do not accept they are phenomena. Make a decision, don't waffle.

"Phenomena" are "things that happen." Gods, elves fairies, whatever are notions.

> And yours says "God does not exist and has no impact in the world as a phenomenon."

Incorrect. The god hypothesis has failed all scientific tests to date. It can be safely set aside. That's not to say God doesn't exist; it's jsut that there's no evidence for any relevance.

> You dismissed out of hand elves and fairies.

Yep. As I would phrenology. Hypotheses tested and found lacking.


323 posted on 09/26/2005 5:25:05 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

A hypothesis relates to a phenomenon.

Now we are precisely where I started. Supernatural phenomena don't exist, only unexplaineed phenomena.

Thanks for the agreement, as much as I miss the notion of elves and fairies.

Now, if you want to start hypothesizing about notions...

DK

LOL


324 posted on 09/26/2005 5:40:46 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: Right Wing Professor

I am so glad that epistemology has no relevence to you or your work.

I am also very happy you find philosophy unimportant to science. How do you prove things to other scientists?

Logic and reason maybe? Nope, RWP has not thought of reason in decades. Don't say evidence, then we're back to logic and reason.

Gods man, you must have the piled higher and deeper version of PhD.

Think before you write, it helps.

DK

By the way, I strickly don't care how you find my writing. I cite other peoples post. You aren't grading my paper and don't have any power over me. Scary thought for you. Why is that?

I do have power over you. You will keep coming back for more. It's your ego. Especially since you have been trounced. But don't use logic or reason, you haven't used them in years. (by your own words yet...)

LOL


325 posted on 09/26/2005 5:52:12 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: jennyp; Alamo-Girl
Gee, betty, ya think maybe it's because of the Discovery Institute's own words???

jennyp, I do not think that DI is necessarily equal to ID. I think there would still be ID, with or without DI. In fact, I think if anything, DI may well be misrepresenting ID to the world, and muddying up the waters in the process. There are plenty of people who are engaged in ID issues that have no tie whatsoever to DI. Why do you want to make DI the issue, when we ought to be dealing with the issue of ID?

326 posted on 09/26/2005 6:03:44 AM PDT by betty boop (Nature loves to hide. -- Heraclitusuote)
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To: Dark Knight
Think before you write, it helps.

This is like getting advice on chastity from a sex-offender.

By the way, I strickly don't care how you find my writing.

'Strickly', eh? Seriesly?

I cite other peoples post.

All your base are belong to us.

You aren't grading my paper and don't have any power over me. Scary thought for you. Why is that?

Heh heh, if I were grading your posts, you'd get an 'F' for spelling and grammar, but then, why would I want to teach grade-school English?

Delusions of grandeur combined with breathtaking ignorance. So where'd you learn to spell 'epistemology'? And when they taught you to spell it, why didn't they tell you what it meant?

327 posted on 09/26/2005 6:32:04 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Dark Knight

> Supernatural phenomena don't exist

And thus ID fails.


328 posted on 09/26/2005 6:49:55 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Right Wing Professor

You came back.

I am so proud of your ego. I use it to control your actions. Your first comment was ad hominem.

Your second was correcting my spelling.

Your third referred to a typo.

Next you revert to grading me. Which you cannot do. Kind of an impotent threat eh?

And your last comment, still ignoring logic and reason perfessor (intended spelling)?

You are the one ignoring epistemology. You said it out loud. I'm sure you haven't thought about "how you know what you know" in years!!!

LOL

DK

I did not expect your ego to be this FAR out of proportion. You lost. Get over it. But you won't, you'll be angry all day long, but you'll deny it. And you will have to answer this post too.

YOU LOST tee hee


329 posted on 09/26/2005 6:50:59 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: Dark Knight
Next you revert to grading me. Which you cannot do.

I just did.

330 posted on 09/26/2005 6:56:16 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (I'm a victim, you're a victim, he's a victim, she's a victim, wouldn't you like to be a victim too?)
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To: Right Wing Professor

You can salve your soul with giving me an imaginary grade.

But you still lost.

So if you give me an imaginary grade, how are you different than creationists you claim use imaginary evidence?

No fair using logic or reason, you haven't used them in decades. You said that. Tee hee.

You lost, get over it.

LOL

DK

You'll reply again, you're not in control of your own ego. I can feel you burning from here. I control you and that makes you crazy...

Tee hee

Give my apology to your wife, your children and your dog. I believe that one philospher said is the order for anger.

Tee hee

You lost.

Tee hee


331 posted on 09/26/2005 7:13:37 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: js1138
Interesting, the ACLU is a driver on the article on this thread, and the ACLU has taken up the cause against the Boy Scouts too. They have lots of irons in the fire.

Wolf

332 posted on 09/26/2005 7:41:39 AM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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To: orionblamblam

Alright, so you made it up from your experiences (which is fine), but to negate people who don't agree with you as automatically incompetent? Excellent example of a faulty survey. North Korea tends to get similar survey results.


333 posted on 09/26/2005 8:12:37 AM PDT by In veno, veritas
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To: Right Wing Professor

Is this ALS using someone else's login? I haven't seen an obsessive self-proclaimed winner in a long, long time.


334 posted on 09/26/2005 8:15:31 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138

I believed you promised you'd add me in the fray, when you insult me.

You guys lost. Accept it. You took a bad position, better to extend and leave the field but you continued to press a bad position...Top Gun, the best of the best.

Logic and reason, the best philosophical tools science has at it's disposal.

Denied by JS1138 and Right Wing Professor.

Tee hee.

Anyone else want to deny logic and reason in defense of science?

Calling all NS evolutionists...Right Wing Professor and JS1138 want you to deny logic and reason in your scientific pursuits and posts.

Stop before you lose more. Vegas hates bad losers, it's bad for business.

Probably bad for science too.

DK


335 posted on 09/26/2005 8:48:27 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: js1138

He's obviously a nutball. Virtual ignore on.


336 posted on 09/26/2005 9:07:10 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (I'm a victim, you're a victim, he's a victim, she's a victim, wouldn't you like to be a victim too?)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Ahh, the great RWP.

You did a dumb thing. You ignored reason and philosophy.

Cool.

It makes you ignorant and silly.

You are reduced to making comments to those persons you agree with.

Pathetic...sure.

But you lost.

You will never be able to tell anyone but your sycophants.

Will you tell them you deny logic and reason?

No.

You retreated from your own words.

Pompous ass comes to mind.

You will reply, your ego, that dominates your being requires it.

Will you reply to me, or attempt to solidify your ego with sycophants?

You're not up to the challege evidently.

Tee hee.

DK


337 posted on 09/26/2005 9:57:53 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: betty boop
Gee, betty, ya think maybe it's because of the Discovery Institute's own words???

jennyp, I do not think that DI is necessarily equal to ID. I think there would still be ID, with or without DI. In fact, I think if anything, DI may well be misrepresenting ID to the world, and muddying up the waters in the process.

Thank you for that.
There are plenty of people who are engaged in ID issues that have no tie whatsoever to DI. Why do you want to make DI the issue, when we ought to be dealing with the issue of ID?
I hope you noticed my #316, 'cuz I thought I should clarify that obvious next question. The Dover trial starts today, and will be clogging the news (as much as any non-hurricane story could). This is a political issue that's being driven by a philosophical dispute within the conservative movement about the nature of morality. The debate that the whole country will be focusing on this week simply is not about the science.

And the parameters of the debate that all these reporters will slot their stories into have been defined by the mendacious arguments of the Discovery Institute, who is driven by their fundamentally misguided fears about the collapse of civilization because of their flawed assumptions about the nature of morality.

338 posted on 09/26/2005 10:12:40 AM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: my sterling prose)
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To: jennyp
The Dover trial starts today, and will be clogging the news (as much as any non-hurricane story could).

And one of the key issues of the Dover dispute involves use of the textbook 'Of Pandas and People', whose final draft simply replaced the word 'creationism', from an earlier draft, with the phrase 'intelligent design'. Hard to argue that ID isn't creationism in a cheap tuxedo when they're doing that sort of thing.

339 posted on 09/26/2005 10:25:32 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (I'm a victim, you're a victim, he's a victim, she's a victim, wouldn't you like to be a victim too?)
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To: Right Wing Professor; Dark Knight
Virtual ignore on.

Is that where you guys call another poster names without pinging them, kinda like now?

And then this
post 283
As it is seen you came in with an insult. Is this more demonstration of your superior intellect, education? If your case is so strong why this?

Your screen name is Right Wing Professor, you say your writings are in peer reviewed journals, all your other scientific buds here seem to buy into everything you say, then this is juxtaposed to your performance here on these boards.

Based onwhat is here, why should contemporary science and scientists be taken seriously (I'll limit that to the cult of cosmo-evo prognosticators)

Wolf

340 posted on 09/26/2005 10:35:29 AM PDT by RunningWolf (U.S. Army Veteran.....75-78)
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