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Lincoln holiday on its way out (West Virginia)
West Virginia Gazette Mail ^ | 9-8-2005 | Phil Kabler

Posted on 09/10/2005 4:46:12 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo

Lincoln holiday on its way out

By Phil Kabler Staff writer

A bill to combine state holidays for Washington and Lincoln’s birthdays into a single Presidents’ Day holiday cleared its first legislative committee Wednesday, over objections from Senate Republicans who said it besmirches Abraham Lincoln’s role in helping establish West Virginia as a state.

Senate Government Organization Committee members rejected several attempts to retain Lincoln’s birthday as a state holiday.

State Sen. Russ Weeks, R-Raleigh, introduced an amendment to instead eliminate Columbus Day as a paid state holiday. “Columbus didn’t have anything to do with making West Virginia a state,” he said. “If we have to cut one, let’s cut Christopher Columbus.”

Jim Pitrolo, legislative director for Gov. Joe Manchin, said the proposed merger of the two holidays would bring West Virginia in line with federal holidays, and would effectively save $4.6 million a year — the cost of one day’s pay to state workers.

Government Organization Chairman Ed Bowman, D-Hancock, said the overall savings would be even greater, since by law, county and municipal governments must give their employees the same paid holidays as state government.

“To the taxpayers, the savings will be even larger,” he said.

The bill technically trades the February holiday for a new holiday on the Friday after Thanksgiving. For years, though, governors have given state employees that day off with pay by proclamation.

Sen. Sarah Minear, R-Tucker, who also objected to eliminating Lincoln’s birthday as a holiday, argued that it was misleading to suggest that eliminating the holiday will save the state money.

“It’s not going to save the state a dime,” said Minear, who said she isn’t giving up on retaining the Lincoln holiday.

Committee members also rejected an amendment by Sen. Steve Harrison, R-Kanawha, to recognize the Friday after Thanksgiving as “Lincoln Day.”

“I do believe President Lincoln has a special place in the history of West Virginia,” he said.

Sen. Randy White, D-Webster, said he believed that would create confusion.

“It’s confusing to me,” he said.

Senate Judiciary Chairman Jeff Kessler, D-Marshall, suggested that the state could recognize Lincoln’s proclamation creating West Virginia as part of the June 20 state holiday observance for the state’s birthday.

Proponents of the measure to eliminate a state holiday contend that the numerous paid holidays - as many as 14 in election years — contribute to inefficiencies in state government.

To contact staff writer Phil Kabler, use e-mail or call 348-1220.


TOPICS: Government; US: West Virginia
KEYWORDS: abelincoln; lincoln; sorrydemocrats; westvirginia
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To: PeaRidge
If you have studied that data then what figure did the Treasury Report give for general imports for that year?

$362,163,941

Well, the consumption figures were what we were all questioning. I don't think anyone challenged the overall import number.

As for the Encarta information, it still doesn't stand the smell test because it still means that southerners, with one fourth the population, were consuming ten times the imports--a per capita consumption 40 times greater. But what's more interesting to me in the article is this: "During 1860 the imports of the South were valued at $331 million; those of the North at $31 million. It was thus obvious that the South was dependent on Europe and on the North for material goods." Does this mean that the total for imports to the south includes goods "exported" from the north? If so, the numbers make a great deal more sense.

801 posted on 10/04/2005 12:28:53 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth

You might want to consult the Treasury Department for that information.


802 posted on 10/04/2005 12:34:44 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: mac_truck

""Why couldn't Southerners build their own warehouses to compete with the mighty Yankees?""

Here is your answer:

"New York shipping interests, using the Navigation Laws and in collaboration with the US Congress, effectively closed the market off from competitive shipping, and in spite of the inefficiencies, was able to control the movement of Southern goods."

Some background may help you understand the undercurrents of the period:

The success of the shipping trade of New England in the early 19th century was a deliberate effort of mercantilism, in which the South at first willingly participated.

The federal government set out deliberately to encourage the commercial trades there, especially ship-building and shipping. The raw material for Northern factories, and the cargoes of Northern merchantmen, would come from the South.

The July 4, 1789, tariff was the first substantive legislation passed by the new American government. But in addition to the new duties, it reduced by 10 percent or more the tariff paid for goods arriving only in American craft.

It also required domestic construction for American ship registry. Navigation acts in the same decade stipulated that foreign-built and foreign-owned vessels were taxed 50 cents per ton when entering U.S. ports, while U.S.-built and -owned ones paid only six cents per ton. Furthermore, the U.S. ones paid annually, while foreign ones paid upon every entry.

This effectively blocked off U.S. coastal trade to all but vessels built and owned in the United States.

The navigation act of 1817 had made it official, providing "that no goods, wares, or merchandise shall be imported under penalty of forfeiture thereof, from one port in the United States to another port in the United States, in a vessel belonging wholly or in part to a subject of any foreign power."

The point of all this was to protect and grow the shipping industry of New England, and it worked. By 1795, the combination of foreign complication and American protection put 92 percent of all imports and 86 percent of all exports in American-flag vessels. American ship owners' annual earnings shot up between 1790 and 1807, from $5.9 million to $42.1 million.

New England shipping took a severe hit during the War of 1812 and the embargo. After the war ended, the British flooded America with manufactured goods to try to drive out the nascent American industries. They chose the port of New York for their dumping ground, in part because the British had been feeding cargoes to Boston all through the war to encourage anti-war sentiment in New England.

New York was the more starved, therefore it became the port of choice. The dumping bankrupted many towns, but it assured New York of its sea-trading supremacy. In the decades to come. New Yorkers made the most of the situation.

Four Northern and Mid-Atlantic ports still had the lion's share of the shipping. But Boston and Baltimore mainly served regional markets. Philadelphia's shipping interest had built up trade with the major seaports on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts, especially as Pennsylvania's coal regions opened up in the 1820s.

But New York was king. Its merchants had the ready money, it had a superior harbor, it kept freight rates down, and by 1825 some 4,000 coastal trade vessels per year arrived there. In 1828 it was estimated that the clearances from New York to ports on the Delaware Bay alone were 16,508 tons, and to the Chesapeake Bay 51,000 tons.

Early and mid-19th century Atlantic trade was based on "packet lines" -- groups of vessels offering scheduled services. It was a coastal trade at first, but when the Black Ball Line started running between New York and Liverpool in 1817, it became the way to do business across the Atlantic.

The reason for success was to have a good cargo going each way. The New York packet lines succeeded because they took in all the eastbound cotton cargoes from the U.S. The northeast did not have enough volume of paying freight on its own.

So American vessels, usually owned in the Northeast, sailed off to a cotton port, carrying goods for the southern market. There they loaded cotton, or occasionally naval stores or timber, for Europe. They steamed back from Europe loaded with manufactured goods, raw materials like hemp or coal, and occasionally immigrants.

Since this "triangle trade" involved a domestic leg, foreign vessels were excluded from it under the 1817 law, except a few English ones that could substitute a Canadian port for a Northern U.S. one. Since it was subsidized by the U.S. government, it was going to continue to be protectionist, and not subject to competition.

By creating a three-cornered trade in the 'cotton triangle,' New York dragged the commerce between the southern ports and Europe out of its normal course some two hundred miles to collect a heavy toll upon it.

This trade might perfectly well have taken the form of direct shuttles between Charleston, Savannah, Mobile, or New Orleans on the one hand and Liverpool or Havre on the other, leaving New York far to one side had it not interfered in this way.

To clinch this abnormal arrangement, moreover, New York developed the coastal packet lines without which it would have been extremely difficult to make the east-bound trips of the ocean packets profitable.

Even when the Southern cotton bound for Europe did not put in at the wharves of Sandy Hook or the East River, unloading and reloading, the combined income from interests, commissions, freight, insurance, and other profits took perhaps 40 cents into New York of every dollar paid for southern cotton.

The record shows that ports with moderate quantities of outbound freight could not keep up with the New York competition. Boston started a packet line in 1833 that, to secure outbound cargo, detoured to Charleston for cotton.

But about the only other local commodity it could find to move to Europe was Bostonians. Since most passengers en route to England did not want the time delays in a layover in South Carolina, the lines failed.

As for the cotton ports themselves, they did not crave enough imports to justify packet lines until 1851, when New Orleans hosted one sailing to Liverpool.

Yet New York by the mid-1850s could claim sixteen lines to Liverpool, three to London, three to Havre, two to Antwerp, and one each to Glasgow, Rotterdam, and Marseilles. This was subsidized by the federal post office patronage procedure.

U.S. foreign trade rose in value from $134 million in 1830 to $318 million in 1850. It tripled again in the 1850s. Between two-thirds and three-fourths of those imports entered through the port of New York.

This meant that any trading the South did, had to go through New York. Direct trade from Charleston and Savannah during this period was stagnant. The total shipping that entered from foreign countries in 1851 in the port of Charleston was 92,000 tons, in the port of New York, 1,448,000. Relatively little tariff money was collected in the port authority in Charleston.

According to a Treasury report, the net revenue of all the ports of South Carolina during 1859 was a mere $234,237; during 1860 it was $309,222.

New York shipping interests, using the Navigation Laws and in collaboration with the US Congress, effectively closed the market off from competitive shipping, and in spite of the inefficiencies, was able to control the movement of Southern goods.


803 posted on 10/04/2005 12:46:03 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: Heyworth
Me "Nowhere have i used that figure."

You "No, you didn't use the 91% number,"

Finally the truth of Non-seq's fallacies come out.

You "but you repeatedly cited the $331 million-south/$31 million-north import numbers."

I did cite that source several times.

You "Arriving at 91% is just math."

No it isn't. It is factual assumption and in non-seq's case factual misrepresentation, because he knew it was wrong. He did the math, did the percentages...all based on his motivation to obfuscate and deceive.

"Then, when it's considered that the north had four times the population, the per capita consumption of imported goods in the south, becomes roughly 40x that of the north."

That is based on information that is completely distorted, so it will beg the answer that beforehand appears to be totally factually incorrect. No, you and non incorrectly framed the question.
804 posted on 10/04/2005 12:53:57 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge

So basically you've been playing word games with this information for the last week or more. You tell us that Lincoln was obsessed with collecting the tariff from the southern ports because the south imported so much (and that's where you started throwing out the $332 million number), but now it turns out that that number includes "imports" from the north which weren 't subject to tariff anyway. So now we arrive at the conclusion that the per capita consumption of actual tariff-subject imports was probably more in line with that of the north, meaning that of the $53 million in tariffs collected in 1860, probably about $10 million would have been on goods destined for consumption in the south.


805 posted on 10/04/2005 1:00:27 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: PeaRidge
That is based on information that is completely distorted, so it will beg the answer that beforehand appears to be totally factually incorrect. No, you and non incorrectly framed the question.

No, it's you that's been obfuscating and distorting, attempting to maximize the importance of tariff revenues on goods bound for the south by conflating them with non-tariff-subject goods from the north. And now you're trying to make it sound like we were dumb for taking the word "import" at it's accepted meaning as goods originating in a foreign country.

I'm going to go "import" some lunch from the place across the street.

806 posted on 10/04/2005 1:08:19 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth

"You also cited the 1860 Treasury report from the State of the Union address as the source for the numbers,"

I did, and it gave you the import number to begin. I told you that it would take some work.

"giving a general link and telling us"

The link was specific, and I told Grand Old the topic to search for.

"Well, we did find it, only to discover that those numbers were nowhere in that document."

The import/export and tariff data were and are all there.

"Nor could they be extrapolated through any amount of interpretation and study, as you suggest."

It can and does with the right study.

"No, the closest that document comes is in giving the total collected tariffs for each quarter of the preceding year. So why did you tell us all that was the place we could find the numbers?"

Tell us all? Who are you representing?

I told you the source of the data on import value. I told you that the value of import consumption could be determined. I have even explained it to you in a post above.

You still don't get the point do you?









807 posted on 10/04/2005 1:14:49 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: Heyworth

"First off, the original warehousing act was passed in 1846. The 1854 act only changed the place of storing imports for up to three years before the tariff was paid from government customs houses to private bonded warehouses. Second, the bill was heartily approved of by the southern agricultural interests, as reported by DeBow:"

That must mean something to you.


808 posted on 10/04/2005 1:27:49 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
From the link: 'Payroll per employee is more than $80,000 per year in Manhattan’s largest industry and almost $200,000 per year in Manhattan’s second largest industry.'

Prostitutes and politicians make that much? ;o)

New York Mayor Fernando Wood once wrote,

When Disunion has become a fixed and certain fact, why may not New York disrupt the bands which bind her to a venal and corrupt master – to a people and a party that have plundered her revenues, attempted to ruin her and a party that have plundered her revenues, attempted to ruin her commerce, taken away the power of self—government, and destroyed the Confederacy of which she was the proud Empire City? Amid the gloom which the present and prospective condition of things must cast over the country, New York, as a Free City, may shed the only light and hope of a future reconstruction of our once blessed Confederacy.
He, and many other northerners understood that the residual states of the union would lose millions and millions of dollars that went to Atlantic shipping and manufacturing interests, that Northern 'imports' would now face tariffs (or possibly export duties if the Confederacy voted to enact them). Without a commercial fleet and laws mandating yankee ships/crews to transport Southern exports, the British and other shippers were poised to take the shipping business out of Northern hands. Southern exporters would see a rise in net profits with the reduction in tariffs, and the average Southerner's standard of living would rise accordingly.

Conversely, millions of dollars of 'protection' money would be lost to Northern interests, their costs would rise, and many industries would simply fold in the ensuring meltdown. The Panic of 1857 would be a picnic in comparison.

809 posted on 10/04/2005 1:34:36 PM PDT by 4CJ (Tu ne cede malis!)
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To: Heyworth
I said: "If you have studied that data then what figure did the Treasury Report give for general imports for that year?"

You said: "$362,163,941"

Well, that is one of three import figures. That particular figure is value of import merchandise along with gold and silver specie. In order to compare manufactured imports, the gold and silver should be left out.

If it is, the actual gross imports (as I mentioned earlier) are $354,000,000. But, as I said above, $336,000,000 were marked for immediate consumption, thus dutible. Whether or not the balance was stored for later distribution or fell into the reexport category is not known.

Now, I make that seemingly useless distinction to make the point that the data you quoted was already in 9% error if it had been used.

"As for the Encarta information, it still doesn't stand the smell test"

Guess you will just have to contact them. But be careful.

"with one fourth the population, were consuming ten times the imports per capita consumption 40 times greater"

How did you come up with that conclusion? You better be careful.

""But what's more interesting to me in the article is this: "During 1860 the imports of the South were valued at $331 million; those of the North at $31 million. It was thus obvious that the South was dependent on Europe and on the North for material goods."

Duh? As well as would be obvious that every mill in the North and most in England were just as dependent upon the South.

"Does this mean that the total for imports to the south includes goods "exported" from the north? If so, the numbers make a great deal more sense."

Now you are beginning to understand and you can relax and not be so careful now. Atta boy. Now, go tell non-seq and Grand Old whatever.
810 posted on 10/04/2005 1:49:39 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
You still don't get the point do you?

The point I get is that you're trying to maximize the importance of tariff income on foreign goods bound for the south by conflating them with non-tariff-subject goods from the north. Then, when you're called on it, you attempt to cover a vague source (Encarta????) by sending anyone looking to verify your numbers on a series of wild goose chases into historical documents. And when someone does run down those documents and finds that they don't say what you said they would, you play the o-so-superior "Well, you're just not smart enough to understand" card.

That's the point I get. Now if you've actually got a source for this stuff, post it. Post the actual documents like I did with the 1860 Treasury report. Otherwise, your credibility with these "facts" is shot.

811 posted on 10/04/2005 1:58:41 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth
"No, it's you that's been obfuscating and distorting, attempting to maximize the importance of tariff revenues on goods bound for the south by conflating them with non-tariff-subject goods from the north."

Well, I see we have entered the realm of you having nothing else to add except criticism. From the beginning I warned Non-seq and you to be careful about misunderstanding the data. Now that you have realized how wrong you have been, you want to make it my fault. Sorry, invitation refused.

The reason you feel stupid, and deservedly so, is that you, wanting to be 'right', launched off into wild arguments based on information you misunderstood, and from misrepresentations of others that you also misunderstood.

And why did you misunderstand? You were too busy being critical rather than asking rational questions.

I have done the research I offered you. I knew if I tossed it out there, that you would find some inane criticism to attempt to defeat the conclusion. So, I attempted to walk you through it. When you came to a wrong conclusion, I pointed it out, but did not try to tell you what to do next.

You continued to blunder about making mistake after mistake, and not asking for clarification. Yes, I held back some information, and left you open to your own devices to see if you had an objective bone in your body. But, you, driven by your motivation to prove something, simply failed to ask the obvious questions.

If you had asked any of the following questions,for example, you would not be where you are now. "How do you define imports for consumption? "What were the sources of the imports? "Did the North import both overseas and domestic products? "Is the data broken down into sectional consumption numbers? "How much tariff is paid directly to the customs houses and when?

So, instead of ""it's you that's been obfuscating and distorting"" I would instead say that you are not mature in your curiosity or discourse.
812 posted on 10/04/2005 2:27:35 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: M. Espinola; All
yet another DUMB-bunny comment from FR's DUMBbunny-in-cheif.

free dixie,sw

813 posted on 10/04/2005 2:31:12 PM PDT by stand watie (being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: PeaRidge
WELL SAID!

otoh, don't confuse the members of the DAMNyankee coven with FACTS. they can't handle the TRUTH.

soon, they'll be accusing you of lying, just because they can't.

free dixie,sw

814 posted on 10/04/2005 2:33:30 PM PDT by stand watie (being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: PeaRidge
N-S deals in PROPAGANDA. nothing more,nothing less.

UNtruthfulness, SPIN,artful evasions & DIShonesty is his JOB as Minister of DAMNyankee Propaganda.

we/you shouldn't knock him for doing his JOB.

free dixie,sw

815 posted on 10/04/2005 2:36:00 PM PDT by stand watie (being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: 4CJ
Yes, you are exactly right. Lincoln knew that the City of New York and surrounding Burroughs would declare themselves free trade zones and start business with the Confederacy. He knew every cotton mill in the North would be closing the doors in a few days. Thousands in New York in the garmet business were about to be laid off.

When the Confederacy stated that it would allow overseas shipping to use the Mississippi, the new President knew he was losing the Midwest trade in food, furs, and lumber to the South.

Then, when the Confederacy announced tariff rates 1/2 that of the North, everyone had panic. He used the excuse of saving the Union to send troops to Charleston and Virginia, but it was to save the financial and political balance of the North.
816 posted on 10/04/2005 2:36:10 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
EXACTLY!

as i've said @ zillion times, "DIShonest Abe" was motivated ONLY by $$$$$$$$$$$$ and POWER. nothing more, nothing less.

free dixie,sw

817 posted on 10/04/2005 2:38:09 PM PDT by stand watie (being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: PeaRidge
While I appreciate the detailed background material, nothing you've presented so far raises itself as an impediment to Southern from participation in the American system.

In 1789 tariff legislation gave American built and owned vessels a preferred tariff. This presumably included vessels built and/or owned in the South. The "triangle trade" you described provided the South with a natural advantage, as the cotton bound for England was closer to southern ports than northern ones. Southern entrepreneurs could have loaded ships with cotton from Savannah to Liverpool, returned to New York with manufactured goods and wares, and completed their "triangle" with northern domestic goods, some imports, and passengers.

Pea, you really should stop thinking about the Northern United States as being a foreign country. It would greatly help you overcome your historical myopia.

818 posted on 10/04/2005 2:50:21 PM PDT by mac_truck (Aide toi et dieu l’aidera)
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To: Heyworth
"The point I get is that you're trying to maximize the importance of tariff income on foreign goods bound for the south by conflating them with non-tariff-subject goods from the north."

How could I do that since the data I originally gave was to another poster on a completely different topic and that obviously was intended to rebut a totally different assertion? If you have a problem with it, give us your own data.

"Then, when you're called on it, you attempt to cover a vague source"

Yes, so all links to encyclopedias are now not valid sources per your decision. We will all adhere to that I am sure.

"by sending anyone looking to verify your numbers on a series of wild goose chases into historical documents."

You just did not know how to use what you found.

"And when someone does run down those documents and finds that they don't say what you said they would"

The source you appear to refer to is the US Treasury report. It gave you the data to begin your search.

""you play the o-so-superior "Well, you're just not smart enough to understand" card.""

And you play the 'its all your fault card.'

Now if you've actually got a source for this stuff, post it. Post the actual documents like I did with the 1860 Treasury report. Otherwise, your credibility with these "facts" is shot.

Why don't you read the above posts and links. I have told you exactly what you need.

Your biggest mistake is this: "The point I get is that you're trying to maximize the importance of tariff income...". I am not trying to make that point at all.

This all began with someone saying that the South was too poor to consume anything. I think that point has been rebutted in spades.

If you are still interested, and I do not see why, what value of consumable imports the South imported I will be glad to supply you with that information. Otherwise, have a nice day.
819 posted on 10/04/2005 3:01:42 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: stand watie

Well, they can't accuse me of lying since I 'borrowed some of that". Anyway, thanks.


820 posted on 10/04/2005 3:05:44 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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