U.S. Mint Confiscates 10 Rare Gold Coins

Yahoo | AP ^ | 8/25/05

[Yo-Yo]

The value of gold is a myth.

Any more so than the value of a piece of paper?

[Just mythoughts]

"There are highly-reputable professional coin grading services that could have graded and authenticated the coins and the coins would have been returned to the owner. The big mistake was in allowing a government agency to this."



Maybe the plan from the beginning was to let the government authenticate, knowing they would be confiscated, then sue in court hoping a jury would award the coins back.

[shield]

HEADLINE SHOULD READ:

US GOVERNMENT MINT STEALS 10 RARE GOLD COINS

[LexBaird]

Here's the point: these coins were stolen from the Mint in the first place, and sold on the black market. The value of these coins comes from the fact that they were never circulated and the only examples in existence were "liberated" from the Mint.

If they were Rembrandt paintings stolen from the Gardiner Museum and some pawnshop dealer brought them in to be verified, no one here would claim that the pawnbroker was the legitimate owner.

[atomic_dog]

The reason that coin was allowed to exist what that the US Government issued an export license for it in 1944, which was necessary thanks to the gold confiscation by FDR. A case of the left hand not knowing what the right was doing but some clever lawyers latched on to that fact and made a case out of it. The Feds decided not to fight and settled and "issued" that one coin, a technical mint designation that made it legal. Part of the agreement of sale of that coin was that the US government would not legalize any others and seize any that came to light. Actually it's kind of gratifying to see at least on arm of the Federal Government living up to its obligations.

[Modernman]

Looks like the majority of responses so far are from FReepers unclear on the concept of "property."

I tend to side with the government on this one. As I understand it, these coins were never released into circulation. Anyone who owns one has obtained them through a chain that involves some sort of illegality.

A thief cannot give a customer any better title to property than the thief held.

[Mannaggia l'America]

During WWII, my grandparents' house was subject to government "inspections" because they were from Italy and my grandmother had not become a US citizen - even though my grandfather had become a citizen and their son was in the navy in the south Pacific.

As a kid I used to collect coins, and they told me that at one time they had a few gold coins but they were confiscated (their words were "stolen") by the government inspectors.

[BostonianRightist]

"Hello, we're from the government and we're here to help."

[atomic_dog]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. The method in which they "recovered" the stolen property is completely dishonorable

It's not my opinion, it's the law of the land. Would it have been more honorable to send in jackbooted thugs with sub-machine guns to knock the doors down? That's how stolen property is most often recovered by the government.

[scory]

Very interesting. I didn't know about that agreement though I remember reading that at first the mint wanted to confiscate the coin and then some deal had been struck.

It should be noted that there are other rare coins that have made their way out of the mint in questionable ways. The 1913 Liberty nickel comes to mind. Also some of the 1804 dollars. There are others but I am not able to recall them at the moment.

[anton]

Morons! They should have shipped them to London and sold them there.

[LexBaird]

HEADLINE SHOULD READ: US GOVERNMENT MINT STEALS 10 RARE GOLD COINS

No, it should read "US GOVERNMENT MINT RECOVERS 10 STOLEN GOLD COINS"

[SJSAMPLE]

Value "is what it is": Value.

It's worth is determined by the "value" that people place upon it. Some place a little, others place a lot. Some have no need, thus no "value", for gold.

Same principle with oil,water or oxygen.

[Jack Black]

And we didn't go off the standard, FDR criminalized gold possession.

This story is no different than a war trophy NFA weapon being found in the attic. Once contraband always contraband to the gubermint.

The first article I ever posted on FR, about 8 years ago, was FDR's executive order ordering the confiscation of gold. Amazing reading. Talk about a fascist in socialist clothing. I'm amazed that the debunking of FDR hasn't reached more corners of the universe than it has.

The war trophy analogy is not correct. Owning full auto machine guns is illegal. Owning any an all manner of gold coins is not. US Citizens were required to turn in gold coins in 1933. Many did not. Many coins were outside the USA and thus outside the jurisdiction of FedGov. When citizen ownership of gold was permitted again (Nixon?) it again became legal to own all years and types of gold coins. For instance my grandmother gave me a 1898 $2 piece before she passed. That was legal. It may have been illegal for her to hold it (or not, because there was an exception for rare coins in collections and obviously even in '33 and 1898 piece was old, and obviously she didn't try to spend it in the intervening 50 years :-) but today it is totally legal to own.

I think the argument here is that none of these were ever placed in circulation so they are stolen. But that says that the Treasury dept's 70 year old records are more accurate than the facts on the ground (ie: this lady has 10 of them). It's a corner case.

[SittinYonder]

After a legal battle, the dealer was permitted to sell the coin at auction on the condition he split the proceeds with the Mint.

So if you're a king of Egypt the mint doesn't "seize" the coins, just splits the profits, but if you're an American citizen then those coins belong to the Mint.

The government has already allowed others who have the coins to sell them (including, apparently, her father). What's the difference now?

[montag813]

They could at least offer them $20 each for them.

Yes, the "Kelo Rate".

[Jack Black]

And my example is a bad one Owning full auto machine guns is illegal. ... someone is sure to point out all you need is a Class III license, residence in a state that permits it, a $500 per gun license, etc. OK, granted.

[Sir Gawain]

Never trust a government agency. Period.

[newfrpr04]

they should have only given up one coin to authentic. Why would they trust the mint with all the coins or anyone else, surely they knew some of the coin's history before turning them over.

[atomic_dog]

It should be noted that there are other rare coins that have made their way out of the mint in questionable ways.

Absolutely correct. However, none of them were documented as having been stolen. These were, by Special Agent George Drescher of the Secret Service, in the Forties.