Replies

Take it however you want it, Pal, but know this: I believe in God, but also don't take Genesis literally. Never have, never will. I also am aware of the dubious (at best) credentials of creation "scientists." Religion is faith. It requires someone to take a leap to believe in a higher power. Science is fact. It can be observed. It can be tested. Genera and species are only named by man, it's arbitrary when one species becomes another.....and often determined by a statistical analysis of various characters of a specimen.

As an example, what separates Homo sapiens from Homo ergaster, or more appropriately, what separates hominids from other primates? Basic characters. Not brain size, but walking erect. What separates Homo from Australopithecus? Various characters such as dentition, brain capacity, and most of all tool making ability (cultural factor). Species divisions are essentially arbitrary....a 200,000 year old Homo sapiens skull from China is different in detail from a 200 year old skull from France, but there is enough similarity statistically to place them in the same species. Fact, not faith.

I've heard every creationist argument you can think of and they all boil down to misrepresenting paleontology, physics, anthropology (both physical and cultural), biology, genetics, history and every other science and academic discipline you can think of.

If you want a board fight, you can go somewhere else because you aren't getting one from me. I have my faith in God and Jesus Christ, but I also know that Genesis is about the power and the majesty of God, and to reduce God's word to a simple fable about where man came from, rather than being a message about God's authority strikes me as blasphemous. I won't belittle my God by doing that. I respect and worship Him too much to take His work and make it as simple as these frauds would do.

Speaking of Genesis, read "Genesis And The Big Bang" and "The Science Of God", both by Dr. Gerald L. Schroeder, former MIT Prof. now teaching in Israel.

There is objective evidence of the Bible being divinely inspired such as numerous fulfilled prophecies that are astronomically unlikely to have occurred by chance. No archaeological discovery has ever disproven anything in the Bible but has confirmed hundreds of things - both old and new testaments.

I've heard every creationist argument you can think of and they all boil down to misrepresenting paleontology, physics, anthropology (both physical and cultural), biology, genetics, history and every other science and academic discipline you can think of.

How does irreducible complexity misrepresent any of those? Be specific.

If you want to see a good scientific argument against Darwinism, here's one:

A Scientific Critique of Evolution.

Also a peer reviewed paper giving evidence for a young earth by Dr. Russell Humphreys who has been published in leading scientific journals:

Helium Evidence for A Young World Remains Crystal-Clear

I usually just observe these threads. But, Bombardier if you respect and worship God so much, how come you don't take Him at His word?

I believe in God, but also don't take Genesis literally. Never have, never will.

Ok; here is NOTHING from Genesis; with only one comment from me, about halfway down..........

NIV Deuteronomy 4:32
Ask now about the former days, long before your time, from the day God created man on the earth; ask from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has anything like it ever been heard of?

NIV Psalms 89:47
Remember how fleeting is my life. For what futility you have created all men!

NIV Psalms 104:30
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.

NIV Psalms 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

NIV Psalms 148:4-5
4. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.
5. Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created.

NIV Isaiah 40:26
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name.

NIV Isaiah 41:19-20
19. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together,
20. so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the LORD has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

NIV Isaiah 42:5-6
5. This is what God the LORD says-- he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
6. "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand.

NIV Isaiah 43:1
But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.

NIV Isaiah 43:6-7
6. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--
7. everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."

NIV Isaiah 45:7-8
7. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
8. "You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it.

NIV Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

NIV Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."

NIV Isaiah 54:16-17
16. "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;
17. no weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD.

NIV Isaiah 57:16
I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-- the breath of man that I have created.

NIV Isaiah 65:17-18
17. "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.

NIV Ezekiel 28:13-15
13. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
14. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

NIV Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

NIV Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

NIV Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

NIV Mark 10:6
"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.' (Not umpteen eons later; after lots of Evolution takes place!)

NIV Mark 13:18-19
18. Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19. because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again.

NIV Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

NIV Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

NIV Romans 8:20-22
20. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21. that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

NIV 1 Corinthians 11:8-9
8. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9. neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

NIV Ephesians 3:8-9
8. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9. and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

NIV Colossians 1:16-17
16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

NIV 1 Timothy 4:4-5
4. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
5. because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

NIV Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

NIV Hebrews 9:11
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

NIV Hebrews 9:26
Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world.

NIV Hebrews 12:26-29
26. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."
27. The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
29. for our "God is a consuming fire."

NIV 2 Peter 3:4
They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

NIV Revelation 4:11
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

NIV Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

NIV Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

NIV Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

I respect and worship Him too much to take His work and make it as simple as these frauds would do.

Unfortunately, most Christians 'believe' Evolution because they do NOT know what their Bible says. If, as they say, they 'believe' the words of Jesus and then of the New Testement writers, they have to decide what the following verses mean:

Romans 5:12-21
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If there were no one man, that means SIN did NOT enter the World thru him.

If Adam was NOT the one man, that means SPIRITUAL DEATH did not come thru him.

If SIN did NOT enter the World thru the one man, that means Jesus does not save from SIN.

Are we to believe that the one man is symbolic? Does that mean Jesus is symbolic as well?

The Theory of Evolution states that there WAS no one man, but a wide population that managed to inherit that last mutated gene that makes MEN different from APES.

1 Timothy 2:13

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Was Paul WRONG about this???