I understand that it is important to correct any misunderstanding I might have about the Catholic Church, just as I would try to correct any misconceptions you might have about what the Bible teaches. Granted that there may be more room for interpretation when we are discussing the Bible than the catechism. For example, I do not believe that I can construct religious practices that are so monolithic that they would constitute one way of worshiping God on Sunday. The best I can hope to do is to show that the Bible is reasonably clear about how to have everlasting life and not be condemned to Hell.
Does the Catechism teach that it is a sin of presumption to believe that we will have everlasting life? If so then this is the only issue that in my opinion might separate our theological positions, and is also so substantial that it is an important distinction. Everything else is ancillary.
As for the Papacy it may be controversial as you suggest, but I consider that the Pope’s teachings on morality, humility, and Christ, and many more areas of Christianity are more akin to my beliefs than the teachings of liberal theologians who condone abortion, and gay marriage. Their teachings about Jesus are much more offensive to my firmly held beliefs than anything the Pope might say about praying to the saints, or his teachings on the position of Mary within the plan of salvation.
I also believe that the Holy Spirit can guide the Pope, as we all can be guided if we believe and surrender.
John 15: 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
I suspect that we all instinctively know the difference between sin and righteousness. For example, I submit that choosing to abort a child violates our instincts. I suggest that in order to assuage the guilt associated with such an act, one must construct a wall of separation between one’s instinct and the act. I is my hope and belief that we all desire to do good, but of ourselves we lack the power to accomplish our desires. I believe that with God’s grace we can do good works, but it is not of ourselves, so that we must not boast of our good works. All our works which are not the work of the Holy Spirit acting through us are like filthy rags as compared to the righteousness of God.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose
I do not say that we who believe and are guided by the Holy Spirit are on autopilot destined to do good works, on the contrary, we still have a human nature and good works though important to our Christian walk are difficult and sometimes impossible.
2 Corinthians 5: 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
By this I do not imply that salvation is the result of man’s good works, but rather the work of Jesus on the cross. Certainly our good deeds will be rewarded.
Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
Romans 4:3-5 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Last but not least, the verse most used by Evangelists who teach salvation by faith alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I apologize for this hasty and disjointed message, but I was pressed for time and I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Yours in Christ,
Street_Lawyer
Good to hear from you again.
"I understand that it is important to correct any misunderstanding I might have about the Catholic Church, just as I would try to correct any misconceptions you might have about what the Bible teaches"
:-)
Perhaps there is a slight difference in the contrasting statement above. I am able to clear up misconceptions about the Catholic Church because I happen to be Catholic and am well versed in it (I teach classes to others). Interpretations about what the Bible teaches probably belongs in another category then your first statement. I would hope you can understand that we may have different interpretations of the same Scripture - and neither may be "misperceptions". If I do misunderstand a particular brand of Christianity and its teachings - then feel free to correct me. I am not an expert in the various denominations and where they stand on issues.
"Does the Catechism teach that it is a sin of presumption to believe that we will have everlasting life?"
Interesting, because I am doing a lot of Philosophy reading, and the question of certainty is a big issue. First of all, there is no such thing as absolute certainty of anything, except our own existence - Descartes. So I don't think we can KNOW at that level. Thus, "absolute certainty is out" - Chapters 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3-4 stress the possibility of faltering, even after Baptism. Also, even Christians who believe in "once saved, always saved" in reality confuse the believer, since it might be said about him that he never actually was saved (if he sinned greviously). Thus, how can they say they know they are saved? Next year, it might be determined that he never was saved to begin with.
Also, Paul states a number of times that those who commit specific sins will not enter into the Kingdom (presumably, without repentance).
However, the Catholic Church says that we can know with "moral certainty" that we will go to heaven if we obey the Will of God. The will of God is spelled out specifically in the Decalogue as interpreted by Christ (vs. the Mosaic Pharisaical interpretations of going only to the letter). The Will of God is also seen in specific actions in our daily lives. I think we can sum them up, to use Catholic words - as long as we are not spiritually dead (mortal sin), then we have moral certainty that we are going to heaven (do understand that we also believe in Purgatory, a purgation that is necessary before we enter into the presence of the Almighty, Holy God). This summarizes the Catholic faith, I believe.
Is this how you see it? If a person willfully commits a serious sin without repentance, that person is in danger of hell, despite any previous proclamation? If so, we agree. Perseverence is a virtue that the NT calls from Christians often.
"... As for the Papacy..."
The Papacy represents Christ's continued presence on earth in physical form. He is a vicar of Christ, not a successor. He (pope) provides a visible unity among our diverse peoples (catholic = universal). It is inevitable, also, that people will disagree with one teaching or another. The Pope in unity with the other bishops (successors of the Apostles) will then make determinations, guided by the Holy Spirit. The precedence of this is Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem. Note that the Apostles decisions went AGAINST Scripture! Circumcision was no longer considered necessary to enter into the People of God. This, in of itself, is interesting. Of course, Acts 15:29 tells that the Holy Spirit, also, thought it was good to make such a decision.
I try to read short readings from the Church Fathers. This one was today's...
A third time the girl repeated: You too were with that man yesterday, but a third time he denied it. Finally Jesus looked at him, reminding him of his previous assertion. Peter understood, repented of his sin, and began to weep. Mercifully, however, Jesus forgave him his sin, because he knew that Peter, being a man, was subject to human frailty.
Now, as I said before, the reason God's plan permitted Peter to sin was because he was to be entrusted with the whole people of God, and sinlessness added to his severity might have made him unforgiving toward his brothers and sisters. He fell into sin so that remembering his own fault and the Lord's forgiveness, he also might forgive others out of love for them. This was God's providential dispensation. He to whom the Church was to be entrusted, he, the pillar of the churches, the harbor of faith, was allowed to sin; Peter, the teacher of the world, was permitted to sin, so that having been forgiven himself he would be merciful to others.
St. John Chrysostom (from Tradition Day by Day, http://artsci.villanova.edu/dsteelman/tradition/days/0726.html)
You are correct, we all are guided by the Spirit - as a community! When Paul discusses how we are a Temple for the Holy Spirit, he uses a plural form of YOU. I think that our own culture's individualism has moved many away from Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ, the community of worshipers, was not a "me and Jesus" concept. The BODY of Christ, the Church, was always presumed to have the Spirit guiding it. But individually, we do not have that charism, the gift, of the Spirit to make dogmatic decisions that are binding on others.
"I is my hope and belief that we all desire to do good, but of ourselves we lack the power to accomplish our desires. I believe that with God’s grace we can do good works, but it is not of ourselves, so that we must not boast of our good works."
Agree. There is two sides of the coin on this issue. The Bible says we can do nothing without the Spirit/Jesus. Only God enables us to do good. By good, I think we mean things that are meritorious, of value, to God. However, with this is the fact that man also in some way cooperates with God's graces. I believe Phil 2:12-13 best explains the relationship between God and us. We are somehow co-workers with God - and as you mentioned before, we are being transformed into a Christ. It is He who works within us. But we also have to allow it. The parable of the Sower, for example, shows how God's grace falls on all, but only some bear fruit (good works) of value. God will judge us on how much we cooperate with this grace. It is not a work of our own, but we are not automatons, either. Grace does not overpower nature, as Aquinas said.
I think we agree pretty much on how God works in us to bear fruit, which at the same time determines whether we will be a goat or a sheep (Matt 25).
I also disagree with the idea of salvation by faith alone. Salvation, it is clear, also comes from obedience to the Will of God, not just in trusting in God's promise. We really are transformed, not just extrinsically. As you have said, it is not our work that allows us to obey (the Law did not give the power to obey it, only the Spirit can give us the power to obey the Law of Christ - summary of Romans, right?)
Sounds like we are on the same page in pretty much everything you said.
Brother in Christ