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To: InterestedQuestioner
IQ,

How do I even begin to pick up all the threads of your post and make it understandable and readable? I know you mean well and believe thoroughly and I don't for even a second think I would persuade you to believe differently.

Since you are certain that Luther made up salvation by grace and faith alone apart from works, I must share this with you...

In 430 AD Augustine set forth Sola Gratia. His view was ratified at the Synod of Orange in 529 AD - which also condemned Pelagianism and Cassianism. By 1223, the Catholic Church, under the influence of Peter Lombard and Thomas Aquinas had moved the Catholic church back to Cassian Soteriology (semi-pelagianism). By 1305 Boniface VIII had moved the church even further to claim that submission to the Pope was necessary for salvation. The number of Sacraments went from two (at the time following Augustine (Eucharist and Baptism - which were outward symbols of inward grace) to seven sacraments that containeed and confered grace or merit. This was a natural result of moving to Pelagian theology. Yes, this was the same Pelagius Augustine opposed in his writings (- On Nature and Grace - for example)

I write that because of your recent post about that Luther guy and your claim that the teaching of salvation by grace alone apart from works is not found in historical Christianity. It was. I've read Augustine (as well as literally thousands of pages of church history during seminary). When you say that Protestantism evolved out of Catholicism 1600 years into it, I would simply point you back to Augustine's writings that were later rejected. The way I see it, Luther recaptured the gospel and foundation that the Old Catholic Church believed before it left it when it embraced Pelagius' views. Realizing you made a wrong turn and going back to the truth is a good thing.

Again, I hold out no intention of trying to change what you believe. We each answer to God alone.

You ask me to show you where scripture teaches that salvation comes though faith, by grace, apart from works. In other words, by faith alone. I will give you three short passages, since this forum is not an ideal place for long discussians...
Romans 3:28 - "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Galatians 2:16, 21 - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified...I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

This is not reading something into the Bible that isn't there. It is the purpose of the death of Christ - and points to the sufficiency of that death.

I do recognize the fallability of all men in interpreting scripture over the years. The loss of the gospel for hundreds of years was a tragedy. And the church of every age seems to get at least one major thing wrong. I am in that lot too. The plain words of scripture - as I posted here though are self-evident.

best, ampu

1,052 posted on 07/19/2005 7:38:27 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
The plain words of scripture - as I posted here though are self-evident.

Nope. I'm asking you to for one very simple thing, please show it to me in scripture. Where in the Bible does it say I am saved by faith ALONE? That's the cornerstone of Protestant theology, and I don't see it in any of the passages you've quoted. I think you said it well earlier, aMPU,

"Again, if this was true - if it was a crucial structure of the church - it would be very clear. In the absence of scripture, we have opinion. It is apparently an idea that surfaced that went in search of scripture to support it and found little. So we are back to the Church fathers."

Except in this case, the Church Fathers don't support it either.

I'll deal with the rest of your post later, but allow me to keep us from getting side tracked by pointing out that I have asked for nothing about sola gratia, I am asking a very simple question about faith ALONE. Please show that to me in the Bible.

BTW, where did you go to seminary?
1,054 posted on 07/19/2005 8:43:38 PM PDT by InterestedQuestioner
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