Posted on 07/15/2005 11:29:25 AM PDT by nypokerface
JACKSON, Miss. - A Christian adoption agency that receives money from Choose Life license plate fees said it does not place children with Roman Catholic couples because their religion conflicts with the agency's "Statement of Faith."
Bethany Christian Services stated the policy in a letter to a Jackson couple this month, and another Mississippi couple said they were rejected for the same reason last year.
"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," Bethany director Karen Stewart wrote. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."
Sandy and Robert Steadman, who learned of Bethany's decision in a July 8 letter, said their priest told them the faith statement did not conflict with Catholic teaching.
Loria Williams of nearby Ridgeland said she and her husband, Wes, had a similar experience when they started to pursue an adoption in September 2004.
"I can't believe an agency that's nationwide would act like this," Loria Williams said. "There was an agency who was Christian based but wasn't willing to help people across the board."
The agency is based in Grand Rapids, Mich., and has offices in 30 states, including three in Mississippi. Its Web site does not refer to any specific branch of Christianity.
Stewart told the Jackson Clarion-Ledger that the board will review its policy, but she didn't specify which aspects will be addressed.
The Web site says all Bethany staff and adoptive applicants personally agree with the faith statement, which describes belief in the Christian Church and the Scripture.
"As the Savior, Jesus takes away the sins of the world," the statement says in part. "Jesus is the one in whom we are called to put our hope, our only hope for forgiveness of sin and for reconciliation with God and with one another."
Sandy Steadman said she was hurt and disappointed that Bethany received funds from the Choose Life car license plates. "I know of a lot of Catholics who get those tags," she said.
She added: "If it's OK to accept our money, it should be OK to open your home to us as a family."
Bethany is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in Mississippi that receives money from the sale of Choose Life tags, a special plate that motorists can obtain with an extra fee.
Of $244,000 generated by the sale of the tags in 2004, Bethany received $7,053, said Geraldine Gray, treasurer of Choose Life Mississippi, which distributes the money.
"It is troubling to me if they are discriminating based on only the Catholics," Gray said.
Well, IntQue, since you refuse to even address the question, which is quite logical since the RCC claims THAT is why they follow tradition, I can only assume you are stumped, and therefore, are just throwing invictives out to try to sound like you won.
Sorry, your mouthwash aint making it.
I don't have time to cite chapter and verse but when Jesus says to Peter that "Satan wants to sift you like wheat but I have prayed for you, so that you can strengthen your brothers..." I have read that in the Greek, Jesus first refers to "you" meaning all of the Apostles, but he then refers to Peter as "you" meaning Peter alone. It seems that this evidences that Peter was in charge. Further, when John and Peter rush to the empty tomb, John arrives first but he does not enter. He allows Peter to enter. This is again evidence that Peter was the leader. I also think that Anais and Saphira might disagree with you about Peter's special role, given that they dropped dead because they lied to him.
Obviously, nothing we say will convince you if you don't want to be convinced. However, given all of the refences and circumstances in the New Testament showing Peter in a leadership role it is a reasonable interpretation to conclude that he was the leader.
Paul's rebuke of Peter does not refute that Peter was the leader. It only shows that he was still human. Peter would only be infallible in his teachings on faith and morals, not in his own adherence to those precepts. It is my understanding that Pope John Paul II went to confession once a week. We are all sinners, even the Pope.
LOL, well Race, we know what they say about assumptions.
Seriously, Race, what is it about the Church that bothers you so much? You don't need to write me a 15 page email, but I'd honestly like to know what bothering you so much about the Church.
Very nice reply.
In my opinion, the language surrounding Paul's rebuke of Peter seems to indicate that Peter had a particularly prominent standing within the Church.
But again, if someone is opposed to the primacy of Peter, they will of course not want to consider that possibility.
I could but stare.....
---I realize the C's position using Isaiah 22:22. I believe it is a wrong use for the following reasons:---
I appreciate your viewpoint aMPU. I believe deeply that you are searching for Truth as we all are. The Catholic Church looks at Scripture in its literal sense (not literalist!) and in its spiritual senses. We speak of the "senses" of Scripture (the title of a very nice book, by the way, by Jimmy Akin). Thus, we see certain principles from the Old Testament that carry forth into the New (the various Types in the OT who were Christlike; Jonah is an example). The point is, it is difficult to look at Scripture in the 21st century now and to appreciate what somone in an ancient civilization meant in a foreign tongue, in a different moral climate, with different means of expression and cultural mores. The Catholic Faith offers that Tradition as much of that tradition came from Judaism which is the origin of our
Christian Faith. Tradition does not supersede Scripture which is the inspired word of God. It does help to frame the contextual meaning of Scripture due to its 2000 years of study and thought. The final pillar of the Church is the teaching Magisterium.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
Our view is this is how Jesus Christ constructed His Church--His Mystical Body. Who are we to argue with the Lord? For more info, see "Theology and Sanity" by the REAL Frank Sheed.
God be with you!
Frank
Thank you for the exchange. We obviously have two different views on several fronts. I start with the scriptures and see what they say and align my beliefs with what I find to be taught there. By elevating tradition to an equal place, you can believe things not overtly taught in scripture. As you said, even popes are not without sin and consequently can and have been very wrong. Unfortunately, once those wrong teachings are accepted, they become part of the tradition that "informs" scripture.
I close saying I have no allegiance to Luther - though he sparked a debate that restored the gospel of salvation by faith apart from works - and for that I'm thankful. For if Christ's death for all sins was insufficient to pay our penalty, there is nothing someone born in sin could contribute to being reborn.
You may be interested to know I was raised with the big C church. I do disagree that the legitimacy of Christianity derives from the Catholic church. It derives from the completed work of Christ.
Best, ampu
"What tradition did Timothy followed that Paul said was ok"
Well, that would be the same traditions that the Catholic Church continues to teach.
Now, we can say that there are two particular classes of "traditions" that we can look at:
Apostolic Traditions are considered unchanging teachings given by the Apostles, whether written or orally given. These generally refer to orthodox teachings of the faith, such as "Who is Jesus and what is His relationship to God the Father?" "Who or what is the Holy Spirit?" You see, we have two examples of traditions that were passed down to Timothy and the other successors of the Apostles. The Sacred Scripture ALONE does not define the above questions to the degree necessary to consider something dogmatically correct.
Case in point - the Jehovah Witnesses claim Jesus was not God. They use the SCRIPTURES to make this point. The reason why they can even BEGIN to make such a claim is that the Bible is NOT clear about the question at hand. The only means of clarity that we have on the question is - what did the Apostles think and how did the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostolic successors? (or the Apostles themselves). We see, even within Scripture itself, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Apostles and their successors to come to the knowledge of truth.
"...For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" (Acts 15:28).
Let's look at this for a second. The question at hand is over circumcision, primarily. Are Gentiles to be circumcised first before they become Christians? There is a difference of opinion. The apostles certainly couldn't say "let's consult scriptures!" If they did, it was a slam-dunk that circumcision was an absolute requirement to enter into the people of God! Yet, here we have the Apostles OVERTURNING what is in Scripture, and utilizing the teachings of Christ handed to them and the inspiration of the Spirit, IT SEEMED GOOD TO THEM that they would make their decision.
That is an example of Apostolic Tradition and process in which such Tradition becomes dogmatically declared. If you were to look at the Ecumenical Councils, you will find the same formulas invoked.
The second type of Tradition is what we call tradition, or doctrine that is not meant to be applied to all peoples of all times. Again, I take you to Acts
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:29)
This is obviously not regarded as a rule of faith to be observed by all people for all time. Paul himself, in speaking to the Romans, tells them
"Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him." (Romans 14:3)
The letter sent regarding the eating of meat was not sent to every church, but only churches that would be scandalized by such an act. Paul, in Romans 14 discusses the necessity to love, even over and above freedom. So we see that this is a tradition meant, not for all time, but for a limited time and location.
Some examples of traditions would be what the priest wears, the rosary, and other such devotions.
"That the Roman Catholic Church is following that same tradition without any variation at all."
Based on what you have written previously, are you aware that you are contradicting yourself? First, you say we cannot know what the oral tradition that Paul told Timothy. Then you say that the Catholic Church has not followed this previously unknown tradition. Quite interesting. And you have yet to explain why you do not hold to oral traditions given to the successors of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church - which is the pillar of truth. This is a Biblical command. How can you be a Bible Christian if you refuse to follow the Scriptures themselves? How can you be a Bible Christian if you REFUSE to enter the Church established by Christ Himself?
Regards
Note the theme of John 6 is in fact aceptance of the Holy Spirit and God's request that men actively build their own spirits to conform and duplicate it. The bread you pray for in the Lord's prayer is the Holy Spirit God is talking about in this passage. It is the sign of Jonah.
" If God does not keep even one promise,
God keeps all His promises.
"how secure is your future hope, since it is also simply a promise of God?"
I've known the Sign of Jonah. I trust Him.
How do I even begin to pick up all the threads of your post and make it understandable and readable? I know you mean well and believe thoroughly and I don't for even a second think I would persuade you to believe differently.
Since you are certain that Luther made up salvation by grace and faith alone apart from works, I must share this with you...
In 430 AD Augustine set forth Sola Gratia. His view was ratified at the Synod of Orange in 529 AD - which also condemned Pelagianism and Cassianism. By 1223, the Catholic Church, under the influence of Peter Lombard and Thomas Aquinas had moved the Catholic church back to Cassian Soteriology (semi-pelagianism). By 1305 Boniface VIII had moved the church even further to claim that submission to the Pope was necessary for salvation. The number of Sacraments went from two (at the time following Augustine (Eucharist and Baptism - which were outward symbols of inward grace) to seven sacraments that containeed and confered grace or merit. This was a natural result of moving to Pelagian theology. Yes, this was the same Pelagius Augustine opposed in his writings (- On Nature and Grace - for example)
I write that because of your recent post about that Luther guy and your claim that the teaching of salvation by grace alone apart from works is not found in historical Christianity. It was. I've read Augustine (as well as literally thousands of pages of church history during seminary). When you say that Protestantism evolved out of Catholicism 1600 years into it, I would simply point you back to Augustine's writings that were later rejected. The way I see it, Luther recaptured the gospel and foundation that the Old Catholic Church believed before it left it when it embraced Pelagius' views. Realizing you made a wrong turn and going back to the truth is a good thing.
Again, I hold out no intention of trying to change what you believe. We each answer to God alone.
You ask me to show you where scripture teaches that salvation comes though faith, by grace, apart from works. In other words, by faith alone. I will give you three short passages, since this forum is not an ideal place for long discussians...
Romans 3:28 - "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Galatians 2:16, 21 - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified...I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
This is not reading something into the Bible that isn't there. It is the purpose of the death of Christ - and points to the sufficiency of that death.
I do recognize the fallability of all men in interpreting scripture over the years. The loss of the gospel for hundreds of years was a tragedy. And the church of every age seems to get at least one major thing wrong. I am in that lot too. The plain words of scripture - as I posted here though are self-evident.
best, ampu
Actually, my view of the millenial kingdom comes directly from the Major Prophets and Minor Prophets - although I see the Matthew passage and Revelation as supporting that same teaching.
best, ampu
The name "millennial" comes from Rev 20. You originally used "millennial kingdom" to discount the possibility of intercessionary prayer. Biblically there is no discounting it.
I disagree with Augustine and the Church on original sin, but agree here.
AMILLENNIALISM:
The amillennialist does not accept the literal interpretation of Revelation 20. The thousand years is figurative, and shouldn’t be taken literally. The millennium is a spiritual representation of the church age, in which we are now living. This view holds that Satan was bound at the first coming of Christ. The good in the world comprises the kingdom of Christ, and the evil in the world is part of Satan’s kingdom. The kingdom of Christ is the church itself. This view was first proposed by St. Augustine in the fourth century, and has been the favored position of the Roman Catholic church ever since. It is also a view that is common among reform protestant denominations. The amillennialist holds that Christ will reign through his church until His second coming, which will mark – not the millennial reign – but the beginning of eternity for believers.
It actually says it several places.
I am going to work, have to come back later.
The Bible is crystal clear as to the one essential condition of salvation:
"B________________ and be SAVED" (Luke 8:12)
"It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to
_____________ them that _____________________ "(1 Cor. 1:21)
"_________________ on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou
shalt be _____________" (Acts 16:31).
Man is saved "by grace through _____________" (Eph. 2:8)
What is FAITH and what does it mean to BELIEVE?
FAITH (belief or trust) is not some difficult thing which no one really understands. People walk by faith every single day. When you sit down in a chair you have FAITH in that chair and you BELIEVE that it will hold you up and not break into pieces when you put your weight upon it! When you drive in your car you TRUST the brakes and you BELIEVE that when you need to stop suddenly your brakes will work! If you fly from one city to another, you have FAITH in the airplane and you TRUST that it will carry you safely to your destination without crashing to the ground. Whenever you eat food, you TRUST that the food has been properly prepared and not poisoned. When you go down into your basement, you RELY UPON the pillars and walls that hold up the ceiling over your head, and you BELIEVE that the house will not come crashing down upon you. When you climb a tree and hang all your weight upon one branch (30 feet above the ground!), you TRUST that the branch is strong enough to hold you up. Every time you drive or ride your bike over a bridge, you DEPEND UPON that bridge to hold you up and not collapse into the water or the highway below. When we pet a big dog, we TRUST that it is a friendly dog and that it will not bite our hand off! When your friend tells you that he will meet you at the park at 3 o’clock the next day, you TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD and BELIEVE that he will do what he said he would do! Can you think of other examples of how we live by faith every day?
Sometimes the brakes in a car do fail and a person might have an accident. Sometimes airplanes do crash and lives are lost. Sometimes chairs do break when people sit in them. Sometimes there is something wrong with the food we eat and it might make us sick! Sometimes the roofs on buildings do come crashing down. Sometimes branches do break when we climb trees. Sometimes friendly looking dogs do bite! Sometimes our friends do not keep their promises.
FAITH IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE OBJECT (person or thing) IN WHICH IT IS PLACED!!! Is it possible to trust something or someone that will never fail us? Is there someone that we can put our faith in who will never disappoint us or let us down?
The Bible tells us exactly WHO we should believe in and WHO we should trust completely. It is not Santa Claus, nor is it the Easter Bunny! It is not the President of the United States. It is not your school teacher or your Pastor, though these may be very fine people. It is certainly not yourself because often you will disappoint yourself and let yourself down. But there is a Person that we can SAFELY believe in. WHO IS THIS PERSON (see Acts 11:17; 16:31; 19:4 and 20:21)? ______________________________________
What does it mean to believe in the Lord? A missionary was once translating the Gospel of John into an African dialect. He had great difficulty in finding a word for the important word "believe" (which occurs frequently in John’s gospel--see for example John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:35,47; 7:38; 8:24; 11:25-26; etc.), so he had to leave it blank. He continued his work but was constantly baffled by his inability to translate this key word. One day a native came from another community with a message of great importance. He had been running through the tangled underbrush for hours and so was completely exhausted. He blurted out his message and, being at the end of his endurance, threw himself upon a nearby hammock. As he went limp he breathed a sigh of relief and uttered a word in the African dialect which was new to the missionary. He asked the natives what the runner had said. One replied, "Master, it means ‘I am resting all my weight here.’" "Thank God," said the missionary, "that is just the word I need for ‘believe’"; and he proceeded to complete his translation. So too, believing is just casting oneself unreservedly into the open arms of the Lord Jesus and saying, "Lord, on Thee I rest my soul for eternity. I am trusting Thee to hold me up and to keep me safe and secure forever! I am depending on You and on You alone to save me!"
Yes, God wants us to lean with all our weight upon Christ. We must cast ourselves upon Christ Jesus and rest in Him and commit ourselves completely to the One who is able to S___________ (Hebrews 7:25)! He is our only hope of salvation!
What does it mean to believe on the Lord? Another illustration might help. The story is told of an expert tightrope walker whose tightrope was extended across Niagara Falls. Of course, to fall from this rope would mean instant destruction. Balancing his long pole lightly, he steps upon the rope and starts across. The crowd is silent. Finally he triumphantly places his foot on the farther bank and a great cheer rises even above the noise of the falls.
The man then turns to the crowd and makes a thrilling proposal. He offers to re-cross the falls with a man on his back! But who is to be the man?
"Do you believe I am able to carry you across?" asks the ropewalker turning to a likely individual.
"I certainly do," at once responds the one addressed.
"Will you let me?" inquires the waiting hero.
"Will I let you? Well, hardly. You don’t think I am going to risk my life like that, do you?" and he turns away.
"And what about you?" as he asks another man who was standing by.
"I believe. In fact, I have no doubt about it at all."
"Will you trust me?’
"I will!"
Breathlessly the people watch as he climbs onto the tightrope walker’s back and they begin step by step. At last they are over; their final step is taken and they stand once more on firm ground!
Bridging the gulf between time and eternity is the great rope of salvation. Jesus Christ alone is able to cross it. You may have heard all about it, and, like the first man, you may even believe that Jesus can carry you across. But not until you take the final step and commit yourself to Him will you ever get over. God wants you to trust yourself completely to His Son.
There is only one problem with this illustration. It gives the idea that trusting the Lord Jesus is something very dangerous and risky. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, trusting Jesus for one’s eternal salvation is the safest thing a person can do! Human tightrope walkers sometimes fail and some have even plunged to their death. The Lord Jesus Christ has never failed and never will. Those who come to Him for salvation will never be disappointed! Have you done this?
WHAT MUST A PERSON DO TO BE SAVED? God’s answer is clearly given to us in Acts 16:30-31. But many people refuse to believe what God says, and they have made up their own way of salvation:
- Try to live a good life, and thou shalt be saved.
- Keep the Ten Commandments, and thou shalt be saved.
- Love your neighbor, and thou shalt be saved.
- Be baptized, and thou shalt be saved.
- Observe the mass and the sacraments, and thou shalt be saved.
- Do your best, and thou shalt be saved.
- Go to church every week, and thou shalt be saved.
- Live a good life, and thou shalt be saved.
- Do good works and thou shalt be saved.
- Say prayers to God and thou shalt be saved.
But man’s way will never result in salvation (see Proverbs 14:12). What does God say a person must do to be saved (Acts 16:31)? _________________________________________ Note: If you ever meet a person who belongs to a cult or false religion, you can always ask him this question: "What must a person do to be saved?" And then see if his answer is the same as what God says in Acts 16:31. Test all things by the Word of God!
Before a person can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, what must he first do (Acts 4:4; 15:7; Romans 10:17; Ephesians 1:13 and compare Acts 17:11-12)? _______________________________________ Can a person believe in Christ if he has never heard about Him (who He is and what He has done)-see Romans 10:14? _______ Carefully read Acts 18:8 and Acts 16:31 and then put these words in the correct order: BELIEVE, HEAR, BAPTIZED, SAVED
1. _____________________
2. ______________________
3. _____________________
4. ______________________
When a person truly believes on the Lord, some wonderful things happen! Please MATCH the following:
| 1. | ______ | The moment a person believes all of his sins are forgiven. Note: the word "remission" means "forgiveness." |
A. Acts 10:43 |
| 2. | ______ | The moment a person believes he is justified (declared righteous and seen as righteous before God). |
B. Acts 19:2 and compare John 7:39 |
| 3. | ______ | The moment a person believes he is sanctified (set apart as God's special person). |
C. Acts 26:18 |
| 4. | ______ | The moment a person believes he receives the Holy Spirit, who dwells within every believer. | D. Acts 13:39 |
Have you put your faith in a faithful Christ? Are you trusting Him for your eternal salvation? There is no other way to be saved (Acts 4:12; John 14:6)! The Bible clearly says, "He that ________________________ and is baptized shall be ____________; but he that ______________________ _________ shall be damned (condemned forever in hell)" (MARK 16:16).
Back to SALVATION, SECURITY AND ASSURANCE
Back to SUNDAY SCHOOL MATERIALS & HELPFUL BIBLE STUDIES
guess we'll have to disagree. But you never interacted with the Major Prophet verses I posted. Anyway, nice interaction.
best, ampu
You're right. I think of the two of them as one sometimes since they're part of the trinity. Thanks for correcting me.
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