Christian Adoption Agency Nixes Catholics

AP ^ | 07/15/05

[nypokerface]

JACKSON, Miss. - A Christian adoption agency that receives money from Choose Life license plate fees said it does not place children with Roman Catholic couples because their religion conflicts with the agency's "Statement of Faith."

Bethany Christian Services stated the policy in a letter to a Jackson couple this month, and another Mississippi couple said they were rejected for the same reason last year.

"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," Bethany director Karen Stewart wrote. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."

Sandy and Robert Steadman, who learned of Bethany's decision in a July 8 letter, said their priest told them the faith statement did not conflict with Catholic teaching.

Loria Williams of nearby Ridgeland said she and her husband, Wes, had a similar experience when they started to pursue an adoption in September 2004.

"I can't believe an agency that's nationwide would act like this," Loria Williams said. "There was an agency who was Christian based but wasn't willing to help people across the board."

The agency is based in Grand Rapids, Mich., and has offices in 30 states, including three in Mississippi. Its Web site does not refer to any specific branch of Christianity.

Stewart told the Jackson Clarion-Ledger that the board will review its policy, but she didn't specify which aspects will be addressed.

The Web site says all Bethany staff and adoptive applicants personally agree with the faith statement, which describes belief in the Christian Church and the Scripture.

"As the Savior, Jesus takes away the sins of the world," the statement says in part. "Jesus is the one in whom we are called to put our hope, our only hope for forgiveness of sin and for reconciliation with God and with one another."

Sandy Steadman said she was hurt and disappointed that Bethany received funds from the Choose Life car license plates. "I know of a lot of Catholics who get those tags," she said.

She added: "If it's OK to accept our money, it should be OK to open your home to us as a family."

Bethany is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in Mississippi that receives money from the sale of Choose Life tags, a special plate that motorists can obtain with an extra fee.

Of $244,000 generated by the sale of the tags in 2004, Bethany received $7,053, said Geraldine Gray, treasurer of Choose Life Mississippi, which distributes the money.

"It is troubling to me if they are discriminating based on only the Catholics," Gray said.

[jo kus]

"Jesus is the only intercessor."

That is not true.

...For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26)

The Holy Spirit is also an intercessor for us.

This, of course, means that "one" in 1 Tim 2:5 does not mean "sole". It means primary. And if you read 1 Tim 2: 1-4, you will find that Paul refers to the saints as intercessors, as well. Otherwise, why would the saints pray for other people? This makes them secondary mediators. If I ask you to pray for me, you are a secondary mediator.

Regards

[jo kus]

"Show me where the Bible..."

You say this over and over again. Well. Show me in the Bible your rule that everything must be in the Bible to be believed, as a practicing Christian. It's not there, is it?

It does, however, say "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." 2 Thess 2:15.

Can you point out to me where in the Bible that oral AND written traditions are no longer to be followed? Or is this another of those man-made traditions?

And finally, to close...

"...the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Tim 3:15

So if the Church says that Mary is in heaven, and you trust in the Word of God, you MUST believe that she is there.

Regards

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1443726/posts?page=804#804

Race--

This is circular. Perhaps we'll chat another time. It has been interesting. I'll stand by my post referenced above in parting.

Frank

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. You missed my question, however. Perhaps I was not very clear. I will try to be more specific.

1. Israel was promised the land forever - the fulfillment would occur in the millenial kingdom. Will not God fulfill these promises? (Is. 10:21-22; 19:25; 43:1; 65:8-9 - as examples, though there are many many more)

2. David was promised a future king that would rule forever, a throne that would last forever, and a royal household to be fulfilled by Messiah during the Millenial Kingdom. Will not God fulfill these promises? (Is. 11:1-2; 55:3, 11; Jer. 23:5-8; 33:20-26; Ez. 34:23-25 - as examples, though there are many many more)

3. The future turning of the nation of Israel occurs during the Millenial Kingdom, according to the promises. Will not God fulfill these promises? (Jer. 31:31-34; 32:35-39; Ez. 11:18-20; 16:60-63; Rom. 11:26-29 - as examples, though there are many many more)

I could go on, but these 3 questions further elaborate what I asked you before. You say you do not believe in a Millenial Kingdom. So I am left pondering whether you think God will not keep his word - fulfull his specific promises? Will he renege? Be an indian giver?

If God does not keep even one promise, how secure is your future hope, since it is also simply a promise of God?

This is what I was asking?

best, ampu

[RaceBannon]

you said it yourself

You dont use the Bible as your measure of faith

you said it yourself!

And that is the crux of the argument, if the Word of God is not suffcient for you, you can use anything you want.

And that is why Roman Catholicism is NOT Christian.

[jo kus]

Now I see why you are called "race".

I didn't say that the Bible is not the measure of my faith.

I said "Show me in the Bible your rule that everything must be in the Bible".

EVERYTHING.

As to the Bible being sufficient. You are going to have to explain what "sufficient" means. Does that mean that all else is excluded? It sounds like that is what you mean. As I mentioned previously, the Bible ITSELF does not say that it is all inclusive to the faith, excluding things not explicitly mentioned.

What about the oral traditions passed down by Paul to Timothy, et al.? I would like you to answer my question on this, as you avoided it last time, and would go a long way in telling me exactly your stand regarding Scripture.

"Roman Catholicism is not Christian"

Are you sure about that? And you. It seems very quickly that you yourself don't follow what is in the Bible. Explain Paul's command to Timothy regarding oral traditions. Why do you do away with them? Does that make you un-Christian, by your definition?

Regards

[spunkets]

"Where is the testimony of God that these people are in Heaven?
Go ahead, show me th testimony from God where these people are in Heaven."

Luke 16:19-31, see Abraham and Lazarus.

"If there are NO DEAD PEOPLE, then what is the second death?"

Luke 16:19-31, see the rich man.

" THEN, show me the testimony from God that I am supposed to pray to/through them, instead of directly to God."

I crossed out "to/through", because you've already been told more than 3 times at length, that it is wrong, to use those words, because it is not what they do and you were told why. They are simply asking other folks to pray for them. DO you got it now. They are simply asking other folks to pray for them.

Show me where God forbids that. Show me where He tells you not to ever talk to anyone else. Can you do that? Can you show me where He forbids you to ask someone to pray for you?

[InterestedQuestioner]

And I answered that with what should have opened your eyes to something:
How do you know they are in Heaven? And Who are you TOLD to pray to in the Bible? There is NOT ONE VERSE in the Bible that tells you to pray to a dead person There are MANY that tell you to pray to God! So, How do you KNOW that person you are praying to/through is even in Heaven? Second, why in the world would you pray to a person when God Himself tells you to pray to Him?

Race,

Good concerns you've raised. I think these have gotten fairly far afield from my original post, but I'll see if I can respond in an acceptable way.

Why in the world would you pray to a person when God Himself tells you to pray to Him?

A fair question. I do pray to God, and no one in the Catholic Church is going to tell you not to do so. Like all Christians, we Catholics not only pray to God, but we also ask others to pray for us. In the case of Catholicism, this includes asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. This seems like a completely reasonable and logical position to take to me. As your posts demonstrate, it's not proscribed in scripture, moreover, there is plenty of evidence from scripture that supports the practice. Quite a few verses have been sited on this thread, some additional ones to consider are Hebrews, Chapter 11 and 12, and the example in which Jesus relates the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, in which the rich man is cast into hell, and asks Father Abraham for mercy. (Luke 16:20-31). When it gets right down to it, Race, I ask the Saints to pray for me because it seems like a reasonable thing to do, and because "the prayer of the righteous man availeth much."

"There is NOT ONE VERSE in the Bible that tells you to pray to a dead person."


Race, in my post I pointed out that God is the God of the living, and not of the Dead, that is, the Saints in Heaven are quite alive, and hence we are not "praying to the dead." We ask the Saints to pray for us, and scripture has plenty of precedents for that, many of which have been sited in this thread.

How do you know they are in Heaven? ...So, How do you KNOW that person you are praying to/through is even in Heaven?

A great question. Many we know are in heaven because the Bible tells us they are, for example, Abraham, Enoch, Elija, and the thief on the cross next to Jesus. ( And note again that Jesus tells a story of a man petitioning Abraham who was in heaven.) See again Hebrews 11 and 12. Many others I know because I'm Catholic, and the Catholic Church tells me they are. That is to say, Race, I believe they are in Heaven for the same reason I believe that scripture is inspired--the Church, founded by Jesus Christ, tells me so. That's probably hard to accept for a person who believes that scripture should be the sole rule of Faith (which your post seems to indicate you believe, ie, you're asking for scriptural justification.) As a Christian, this is a tradition that I simply don't share with you. We both attempt to follow Christ, I do so in large part by attempting to learn from the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and you do so in large part by attempting to follow the teachings of the Scripture that were produced in that Church. In many ways, we have a philosophical difference of opinion that affects our approach to Christianity. I admire the sincerity of many who ascribe to a "bible alone" approach to Christianity, but I think that it cannot work in practice, and that everyone reads the scriptures through a lens or preconceived notions, many of which they are not even aware. Having considered many of the lenses available, I chose to read the scripture from the heart of the Church, as a Catholic, and feel this is the best interpretation and understanding of Christianity. Clearly others who read from their own Faith traditions will disagree with me.

[iconoclast]

While I'm from Wales, we are both Celts,

Ahh! My all time favorite movie, "How Green Was My Valley".

I wonder if the the wonderful men's choir singing sound tracks from that movie can be purchased!

[InterestedQuestioner]

By the way, I work very closely with many Catholic ministries as a pro-life missionary.

God bless you and the work you are doing!

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Name one instance in the Bible where ANYONE prayed to ANYONE else other than God?"

Here you go: Luke 16:19-31

19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was R709 laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's R710 bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades R711 he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, `Father R712 Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this R713 flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during R714 your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 `And besides F376 all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn R715 them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, `They have Moses R716 and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, `No, father R717 Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[InterestedQuestioner]

To pray to anyone else ascribes the attributes of God to that other person/thing, and that is idolatry.


This seems to be at the heart of the understanding. What Catholics are doing is asking the Saints to pray for them, not ascribing the attributes of God to anyone else.

You just tried to say that some person, place, or thing can hear prayers and can speak to God for you, or through that person.

I think it's been made pretty clear that others can pray for us. As far as having others speak to God on our behalf, that was the role of Moses and the Prophets, and it was also the case while Jesus was on earth, as folks often went to others to secure their intercession. One example being the servants at the wedding feast at Cana going to Mary when the wine ran out. Clearly this is not idolatry

-----You are my fellow Christian, and I need you-----
"No, You dont!
You need a great Saviour!"

Race, this is way over the top to the point of being silly. She's a Christian, she already has a savior, Jesus Christ. She also needs water, oxygen, food, shelter, and fellow Christians. ;-)

[Jaded]

Note the name of the man.... Lazarus. Oh and how they seem to be aware of what is going on and had gone on on earth.

What was the name of the friend that Jesus raised from the dead after 4 days?

[InterestedQuestioner]

I'm not following you. Do you mean that Lazarus the poor man starving at the Rich man's gate longing for the crumbs that fell from his table is the same person as Lazarus who's home Jesus went to stay in? The same Lazaraus who's sister prepared dinner for Jesus?? Who do you mean by "they"?

Race has repeatedly requested an example from scripture of someone praying to someone other than God, so there it is.

[InterestedQuestioner]

I hope that last post doesn't come across as being to terse, but I have to get back to work, and just wanted to cut to the chase.

[RaceBannon]

Asking people in Heaven to Pray for you is different than asking people who are on Earth to Pray for you.

When you pray to Heaven, you are praying to GOD, not to a dead person. People in Haven serve God, not people on Earth. God does NOT need people in Heaven to hear prayers for Him.

And while we are to pray for each other, I am NOT to place my success or victory on whether someone prays for me, I am to place my success and victory on a Holy Sovereign God who loved me and gave Himself for me.

To expect my success to happen because someone prayed for me is to place my trust in something other than God Himself.

To Pray for someone is to ask God to intercede, true, but where is MY personal trust to be?

It is NOT to be in the prayers of others, it is to be in God and God alone.

You dont need my Prayers, you need a Holy Sovereign God, and you need to be aligned with His will and His word.

Otherwise, you are placing your trust in whether I pray for you or not.

It is a wonderful ting to ask God to care for someone, to pray to the Lord for someone to line up with His will, to ask God to show mercy to someone that they submit to God's chastisement or chastening or working in their life, but my trust is NOT to be in their prayers for me, my trust is to be in God Himself.

If I am lined up with God in my actions and my belief and my personal walk, then there is no need for someone to pray for me, is there> I would already be in His will, wont I?

If I am already living in His will, submitting to His word, Submitting to what He says and wants in my life, then what is there for you to pray for concerning me?

THAT is why we dont NEED prayers, we need a Holy Sovereign God.

(It is also why we need prayers! Most professing believers have no clue what I just said!)

[wideawake]

Show me where the Bible says Mary is a Saint

Scripture says she is a favored one of God. You know that.

that She is in Heaven

Scripture says that no one will snatch Christ's own from his hand. You know that.

that She is listening to anyone's prayers while in Heaven

Scripture says that the saints in heaven present prayers of the faithful before the Lamb. You know that.

and that it is ok to pray to her

For the 9,637,881st time prayer to Mary is a figment of your crazed, overactive imagination. You know that.

Catholics ask Mary to pray for them.

You can tell the same lie a million times a day for your entire life, but you're incapable of making your lie true. You know that.

The Bible says no such thing.

Scripture says far more than your carnal nature is able to perceive. That, you do not know, because you read with the eyes of flesh.

The Bible says we are to pray to GOD alone.

Again, Catholics pray to God alone. You know that, but you have exchanged the truth for a lie.

[RaceBannon]

Was the rich man alive or dead?

You just lost your argument right there. My point still stands: NO ONE ever prayed to a dead person. What you showed was a dead person praying to a LIVE one!

(And also one of the FEW cases where God shows that soomeone who was once alive in the Flesh is alive in Heaven, Abraham, so, why dont Roman Catholics pray to Abraham? At least you can PROVE HE is alive and in Heaven? (And Elijah, too). There is ZERO proof Mary is in Heaven. Or any of the other saints-so-called.

[wideawake]

And I am not a Calvinist

Oh, of course not. You repeat his tropes rotely, but you don't follow him.

So, let's hear your refutation of the Five Points and let's see a sketch of your defense of Arminius.