[gingersnaps]

(Gary, you posted a reply to me on the previous thread that was locked by the time I saw it. So this is a reply to post 1359 on Thread 6.)

My wife is a psychologist, and my secondary field is the same. Immediately after examning Joran's different websites and seeing the various events which transpired it was our opinion Joran is a psychopath AKA sociopath.

Respectfully, I think that's poppycock, and I'll defend my view here:

First, are you a parent to any kids who've been teenagers recently? I am, to several. I don't have a degree in psychology, but I DO know what it's like to be a parent of teenagers in the 21st century.

One of my sons, as I've posted before, is is a LOT like Joran van der Sloot. He's a chick-magnet, tall, dark, deeply tanned. Funny and fun to be with. Parties and/or plays poker about five nights a week. Is less than 100% emotionally mature and has kicked his younger brother a few times in the past. Has gotten into a nasty shoving match with a drunken student at a nightclub in the last year. Has had a website with clowning-around photos and comments on it that might be considered naughty, including a photo of a friend with a noose around his neck (photoshopped). Probably has not been entirely straightforward with his parents on some occasions in his life.

OTOH, he's a star student and a responsible job holder. Scored a perfect '5' on several AP tests. Is a National Merit finalist with a huge scholarship to college. Maintains a near-perfect GPA while majoring in math and the hard sciences (not taking fluff courses like psych). Holds an $18/hour summer job he got entirely on his own (no connections), and his boss awarded him a $2/hr raise in his first week on the job because he was so impressed with his work. Not bad for a kid who hasn't even graduated from college. And I don't know how he manages it while maintaining that kind of social life.

So have I worried a little about some of his activities listed above? You bet. Do I think he's a "SOCIOPATH" and thus capable of murdering somebody? No way. If he's a sociopath, then 99% of red-blooded young American men today are sociopaths. And I'm sure lots of people who don't like him could make up lots of stories and post them anonymously; but that wouldn't make them true.

And btw, if a bunch of strangers showed up at my house, honking their horns and pounding on my door and shouting questions at my son in a hostile way, I'd tell him not to talk to them too. [Note to posters poised poisonously over their keyboards, eager to trash me again for being an "anti-Holloway troll" : I'm not criticizing the Holloway-Twittys for having done that. I would've done it too. I'm just trying to look at the scene from a different hypothetical perspective.]

(And while I'm off on that little tangent, I also note that the much-adored Mr. Charles Croes, an eyewitness to that scene, said that Joran several times politely offered to help go find Natalee, IIRC -- a statement that has been ignored by those who want to paint Joran as an obvious devil.)

So I think it's irresponsible to diagnose from afar that Joran's a "SOCIOPATH," based on the very little "evidence" we've seen here. Much of which is of dubious provenance, i.e. anonymously sourced internet scuttlebutt. Yes, it's possible he's a sociopath, and he might turn out to be a murderer. But I think there's precious little real evidence of either so far.

[One more kindly intended note, this one to posters who go apoplectic over long posts: There's this little function called "SCROLL" that most of us use when we encounter a post we don't want to read. You might consider acquainting yourself with it.]

[Dolphy]

(And while I'm off on that little tangent, I also note that the much-adored Mr. Charles Croes, an eyewitness to that scene, said that Joran several times politely offered to help go find Natalee, IIRC -- a statement that has been ignored by those who want to paint Joran as an obvious devil.)

I haven't ignored it, in fact I mentioned it in a post because it seemed like an appropriate response and was so opposite of the Twitty's characterization. I have since decided for myself that Croes style did not threaten Joran, he was able to spin his own tale on his own terms. The Twitty's were likely more confrontational, more to the point, which knocked him off his game and made him defensive.

[Palladin]

I automatically scroll by all your bombastic posts.

[Rippersnapper]

That's an excellent post! My step brother was much like what you described and he's no sociopath either. Super jock, babe magnet, homecoming king, great grades, good job at the same place for about 30 years now. He now has two teenagers that should give him a run for his money! heehee

[stopem]

And while I'm off on that little tangent, I also note that the much-adored Mr. Charles Croes, an eyewitness to that scene, said that Joran several times politely offered to help go find Natalee, IIRC -- a statement that has been ignored by those who want to paint Joran as an obvious devil.)

Sooooo its perfectly ok, because one is a teenager and a "chick-magnet" to REFUSE to tell the truth about what happened to a girl in light of the fact he was the last known person to be with her?

So if your son was the last person to be with a "chick" and she is suddenly never heard from again, than he is what a VICTIM?

So teens of today are known to not have parental guidance and love and so therefore all these stories about drunken drugged "chick-magnets" is perfectly normal?

OUCH!! I pray that parents do not think this is perfectly okay otherwise I dread to see the next generation.

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

someone knows how to find Greta's interview transcript of Croes....it was posted before but lacked specificity and detail re the phone call we were on about at the time.....I recall that most of his responses to Greta's questions were very much like an expert witness very accustomed to testifying in court.

matbe someone knows how to find it?

[stopem]

BTW you must have loved Scott Peterson, he was a dark-haired handsome "chick-magnet" too and still is one,
ON DEATH ROW.....

[Dark Skies]

...the hard sciences (not taking fluff courses like psych)...

Heh, heh. There's that old "ad hominem" thing again...and just when I was waiting to see if this post could drive its point home on evidence.

Gingersnaps, why would you presume that someone who is a professonal (albeit in a fluff field) couldn't develop a measured theory that might be correct. I would hope a professional in the fluffy little field of human behavior might see this case with greater clarity, depth, and dimension than the man in the street.

I won't go into it here because the evidence in this thread his too great to discuss...but there is much that does point to the possibility that Joren has sociopathic tendencies.

And I've got news for you, a lot of teenage boys have sociopathic tendencies when wrestling with their hormones. That's why teenage girls get pregnant. Thinking with Little Willie instead of listening to that weak, almost non-existent voice of conscience.

The development of theories that Joren might be a sociopath or might be a killer is not meant as attack on your son...

[GarySpFc]

Ginger,

I made is very clear that was our OPINION, and we are entitled to express it. Now before you get too poppy-cocked I think you should know I had a cousin who was a sociopath. He was a very well known personality in the South prior to 1980, and if I mentioned his name you would almost certainly recognize it. He lead a fast life and had a large 6 figure income, was into sex, drugs, was a dealer, and bragged about his lifestyle. He was killed in an automobile accident after taking drugs.

I lead a very fast life, and in the service saw many of the toughest men in the world. I ran into my share of sociopaths during that time.

We have 2 grown beautiful daughters and had more than our share of teenage boys chase them. We also have many nieces and nephews both in America and Russia, and several are teenagers. We are well aware many young men sow their oats for a time, and that hasn't changed since we grew up. However, if they continue down that path too long they can reach a point where their conscience is seared. You might not be aware of it, but approximately 5% of the population are sociopaths. That said, there is hope in the passage, "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 The key is found in the word "old."

[GarySpFc]

(And while I'm off on that little tangent, I also note that the much-adored Mr. Charles Croes, an eyewitness to that scene, said that Joran several times politely offered to help go find Natalee, IIRC -- a statement that has been ignored by those who want to paint Joran as an obvious devil.)

I'm sorry, but I have not seen one thing which would indicate Joran made that statement, and I seriously doubt it was every made. It is completely our of character for him.

So I think it's irresponsible to diagnose from afar that Joran's a "SOCIOPATH," based on the very little "evidence" we've seen here. Much of which is of dubious provenance, i.e. anonymously sourced internet scuttlebutt. Yes, it's possible he's a sociopath, and he might turn out to be a murderer. But I think there's precious little real evidence of either so far.

We have far more information on Joran than we do Joseph Duncan.

[rolling_stone]

antisocial disorder:
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html

see also conduct disorder:
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-ch02.html

profile of a sociopath:
http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm

I am also of the opinion Joran is a classic sociopath.
no remorse
risk taker- gambling, drinking, fast cars, all while under age.
lier
superficial charm
manipulative
impulsive
fights
possibly killed dog
blamed his mother for not being there that night, not himself
his story of leaving her on the beach shows no concern for her wellbeing. if he made another lie he should have done better than that
appears to have felt entititled as his "right"
etc

rs

[No Surrender No Retreat]

Thanks you for your comments Gingersnaps, but let's not compare apples to oranges.

I have dealt with Psychopaths in my career and Joran is one by all criteria. I do appreciate your respective comments.

I will add, I myself am a chick magnet, but no Psychopath. I do not put roofies in their drinks and force sex on them. I am just a damn good looking man who is financially secure, graduate degree, two careers in both Military /Federal Law Enforcement Civil service.

I also drive a Corvette, cultured, dress immaculate and very experienced in courtship of the female species.

After reading your posts, if your son were a Psychopath, I know you would insure he received the proper medical attention and counselling.

We just have a different view, but in all honesty I have dealt with these psychopaths in many cases. It is easy to spot them once you view them from the psychological stand point.

I have been there and done that, not tooting my horn to anyone. If Gary or myself had an iota of doubt, we would not label Joran a sociopath(psychopath)

My response is not to be subjective, but merely objective.

What can I say, Aaaaaaaaaaaooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh. Werewolves on the Free Republic. Smile, NSNR