India: Gunmen killed at Indian holy site(Muslims' attempted score-settling against Hindus)

BBC News ^ | 07/05/05

[TigerLikesRooster]

Last Updated: Tuesday, 5 July, 2005, 09:20 GMT 10:20 UK

Gunmen killed at Indian holy site

 

Police have ended an attack on a disputed religious site in northern India by killing all the assailants.

Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil said five militants had been killed by the security forces, and another unidentified person was also killed.

In 1992, Hindu nationalists demolished a mosque at the site at Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh state, sparking riots.

Islamic militants had recently threatened to target the complex, but no group has so far claimed the attack.

State of alert

The unidentified men forced their way into the heavily guarded site at about 0915 local time (0415 GMT).

Click here to see a map of the disputed site

They used a jeep loaded with explosives to blow a hole in the wall of the complex, and drove a car through the gap.

The gunmen were surrounded by armed police as they tried to enter the inner area of the complex, and a gun battle lasting nearly two hours followed.

A local official told the BBC that all the Hindu pilgrims and the religious structure were safe.

The destruction of the Babri mosque sparked nationwide riots

The driver of the men's vehicle has been arrested and is being questioned by police, who say they recovered three AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades at the site.

Hindu leaders reacted angrily to Tuesday's incident.

India's main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has called for country-wide protests, accusing the government of going soft on terrorism.

Party chief Lal Krishna Advani said the attack had brought what he termed the movement to build a Hindu temple at the site back to centre-stage.

Hindu nationalist group the Rashtriya Shyamsevak Sangh (RSS) appealed to the public to keep any protests peaceful.

A prominent Islamic scholar urged calm.

"No movement can succeed with violence," Maulana Wahiuddin said.

The town and state are on high alert and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has called a cabinet meeting in Delhi to discuss the attack.

Religious bloodshed

The Ayodhya complex is one of the most disputed religious sites in the world, and one of the most heavily guarded places in India.

The complex is claimed by right-wing Hindus, who believe it is the birthplace of their Lord Ram.

The 16th century Babri mosque was destroyed 13 years ago by activists who believed it had been built upon an old Hindu temple.

The move prompted one of India's worst bouts of nationwide religious rioting between Hindus and the country's Muslim minority, which left more than 2,000 people dead.

The bloodshed was viewed as the most serious threat to India's secular identity since independence in 1947.

The dispute over the complex is still working its way through India's courts.

[VladimirX]

Do you have any idea what life was like when the Vikings still patrolled the Volga and other Russian rivers? They did their last human sacrifice (using young maidens on the boat of the dead chieftain) in the 1700s! Of course, not all Vikings were alike ~ no doubt some became good Orthodox folk, and maybe even contributed a priest or two.

hmm.. perhaps my name might've given the wrong impression, but I'm not a Russian or Ruski speaking. Probably you could let me know more about viking patrolling the volga, its hyper interesting I admit.

I'm from somewhere inside ze anglosaxonosphere.. I liked the name of "Vladimir" since I was little.

[muawiyah]

Look, there had been a mosque. It had been abandoned. Although it was 600 years old, a mob tore it down.

Still, that didn't mean the mob had a clear title to the site. Land is precious in India, and someone else may have a better claim.

In any case, after reading as much as possible about what the findings of the archaeologists are regarding the temple, about all we know is that it was done in Indian style, and that could involve MANY DIFFERENT GROUPS, and even if Hindu, it could still involve MANY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF HINDUS.

My money is on it having served as a Buddhist or Jain temple as its last use before acquisition by the Moslems.

[muawiyah]

If I say Jews are not barbarians, then they are not barbarians. What do Moslems have to do with that? Obviously NOTHING!

[muawiyah]

Good, glad you liked the name. However, you brought up the question of Slavonic girls sold as slaves to the Turks.

The sellers were the Vikings.

[montag813]

And that is a perfectly awful sentiment. Shame. It's evil.

Nonsense. Islam is less of a religion than a system of military conquest. It is perfectly appropriate to respond to conquest with destruction of shrines built as a result of a military victory. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Koran. there is absolutely nothing holy about it in Islam. The mosques there are as out of place as were Soviet tanks in Prague. In 1967, the Imam of Jerusalem yelled from the al Asqa mosque's loudpeakers to drive the Jews into the sea. This is not a holy man, but a terrorist. Likewise note how mosques were used in Falljuah and elsewhere in Iraq, as munitions depots and bases of military operations.

[VladimirX]

The destruction of the Babri mosque and subsequent violence against Muslims was one of the proudest moments in Indian history, and a model for the entire world on how to deal with Muslim shrines.

OK Brother Maynard, hope you consulted the Book of Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one before embarking on an international mosque demolition program, like you intend to do.

Just to refresh your memory...

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.

Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.

Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.

Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

[Torie]

subsequent violence against Muslims was one of the proudest moments in Indian history

Explain away the core of the evil, the endorsement of wanton sectarian violence against Muslims. It seems almost Jihadist, non Muslim style.

[VladimirX]

Well, some of my eastern european pals are mighty pissed off with muslims (esp Turks) whom they specifically blame for kidnapping and selling young children as slaves (in the past of course).. wonder why they arent angry with Vikings though.

[VladimirX]

Just wondering if you are an Indian Hindu or American Jew ?

[VladimirX]

on some boards its usually just short of classic pythonesque lingo-- "I wave my private parts at your aunties".

[muawiyah]

The Vikings had much better press agents.

[VladimirX]

The Vikings had much better press agents.

Yes of course ;) I'm interested in learning more about this topic, could you refer me to some website or just write to me at leisure about this "viking terrorization of the slavs".

[muawiyah]

The way things ended up the Vikings, who were called the "RUS", found the whole part of the Slavic world of which they were masters called after them, as in "RUSSIA".

The other great Slavic center which was under the control of the Mongols ended up being called "UKRAINE". They had their own entanglements with the RUSS, but were not conquered by them for a number of centuries. Remarkably the people in both Russia and Ukraine speak very similar languages, so we have to assume we are talking about the same Slavonic maidens who found themselves sold into sexual slavery (and to wash dishes) to the Turks!

Once you get into early Russian history you will find that there are disputes about the place of the Russ, and whether they were good or bad for the place. Some of the wilder claims have sound archeology to back them up, while some of the more prosaic beliefs have left no evidence.

How the RUSS came to be Orthodox is one of those things you'd think would be readily understood ~ that missionaries would bravely face the Vikings, preach the Gospels, and then baptize them as Christians to march off into a brighter, cleaner and fresher future.

Didn't work that way. The last (open) Thor worshipers in Europe were still in business along the Volga in the 1700s!

I suspect the transformation was very slow due to the nature of the relationship of the Russ with their victims/subjects.

BTW, it's really not a surprise that a really Swedish looking guy like Gorbachev led them out of the dark. He knows who he is if no one else does. Yeltsin is, on the other hand, a Great Russian ~ that is, non-Russ.

Not sure the transformation has finished. Folks more expert in some of the more mystical aspects of Russian history might provide us some guidance in the matter.

So, as an answer, start with Russia, History, 1200s+

[VladimirX]

Thanks for the info.

I found this info about the RUS, on wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_%28people%29

Apparently, their origin is disputed, just as you say. Western scholars believe them to have Nordic Ancestry, while Slavanic historians contend that they were indigenous slavs.

Please clarify another thing (I couldnt understood you clearly), do you imply that the RUS (being of viking ancestry, as you say) sold their slavanic neighbors to the turks ?

[muawiyah]

What, exactly, did you think Vikings were doing so far inland messing around with a primitive society?

They were merchants ~ with a lengthy history of engaging in human slavery.

Part of the problem of dealing with the Viking raiders is their profound separation of society into "man's world" and "woman's world", with all of the women servants to the men, and within "man's world", a leadership elite that got the first share of the booty, and the rest of the men considered servants.

The status of women in Viking society was AT THE BOTTOM. These guys would sell their own daughters, much as they'd sell a cow, or a pig.

If you read through the Icelandic Sagas you will find that most of this crowd of "outcasts" consisted of a handful of Swedish/Norwegian criminals, their sailors, and a flock of Irish slaves!

THe same stuff went on in Russia.

There's a classic book with the simple title "History of the Vikings" out there ~ has about 500 pages ~ you can read it in a weekend. BTW, if you read Shakespeare's "MacBeth", you would have encountered "Lady MacBeth". This co-foundress of the Alexander clan in the Highlands was the daughter of a Viking King! If you ever wondered how it was she became so nasty, you read that "History of the Vikings" and you'll understand her more than you ever imagined.

On the good side, the Vikings founded the first cities and towns in Ireland, and pretty much organized, or forced the organization of the wild Slavic tribes riding the steppes in Russia!

Definitely some interesting folks.

[VladimirX]

Gotcha.. incidentally, there happen to be more than one books by the same title (a history of the vikings).. which one do you recommend ?

[muawiyah]

Trying to think of the lady's name who wrote it ~ let me look ~ Gwyn Jones (?).

The "blood type" thread the other night demonstrated that most Scanderhoovians have A+ type blood. The Sa'ami in the far North have the greatest incidence in the world coming in at anywhere from 50% to 90%.

Further South on the peninsula it drops down to 35%.

Notice that Denmark has a far lower percentage of A+ type blood. That's because they aren't really the same people.

Remember what I said about slavery, and Scandinavian Vikings selling even their daughters ~ we must still explain why it is Danes speak a modern version of Old West Gothic ~ and there it is ~ mothers teach their language to their children.

Must have been one heck of a lot of women sold to the Danes to have their base language changed.

[libertarian_indian]

Good grief, man, you have to read the ancient stuff to figure out what the Hindu guy was trying to preach to us. It was all "we have received the wisdom of the ancients, as given to them directly by Shiva's own agent/persona, and you Westerners can never understand anything, and beside you follow those ignorant Arab hillbillies out in the desert when it comes to religion anyway".

As someone who is not religious and on the side of science, I am always amused by people who selectively deride others for their religious beliefs. Seen in a rational manner, the story of Mohammed on a flying horse or Jesus coming back to life are ridiculous too. In fact, the existence of Jesus is itself suspect.

Let me put things in perspective for you. Thousands of years ago, some Arab political factions were quarrelling among each other and one faction claimed that they were followers of someone named Jesus. A few centuries later, the fighting hadn't yet stopped and another political faction claimed that its leader had flown on a horse to heaven and got instructions from god and the pilot of this horse is the final prophet!

1300 years layer, the fighting still hasn't stopped. Both sides are still fighting over who the last prophet is. These so called prophets are dead and gone but the fighting still goes on.

What is worse is that the Arabs have recruited others to fight this war on their behalf (that is what conversion to Christianity was about). Somewhere down the line, the Arabs switched sides (i.e., left Christianity) and are now pitted against the very people they recruited and dragged into the war!

Don't you find all of this silly?

I am not religious and I find a lot of things in Hinduism silly too, but the question at Ayodhya is not about Ram. It is about Islam displaying its power in an obscene manner by invading other countries and building victory monuments. That is what was pulled down by Hindus a few years back. It was pulled down because asking that Muslims return the land in a civilized manner will not work. The only way it could be taken back was using force and that is why it was done in that manner. Sure, Muslims feel hurt about it, but so what?

[muawiyah]

It's about Ram. Otherwise there'd be absolutely no Hindu interest in the site.

[muawiyah]

Your hypothesis concerning Christianity having some sort of Arab origin is not well grounded.

I'd suggest that it began somewhere in the prophet Jonah's day when he encountered the same Great Fish who'd previously saved Ma-Nu from crashing into the mountain during the worldwide flood.

Those are all quite clearly ancient Sumerian divine revelations that predate Hinduism and Islam by many centuries.