Posted on 07/05/2005 5:27:25 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
hmm.. perhaps my name might've given the wrong impression, but I'm not a Russian or Ruski speaking. Probably you could let me know more about viking patrolling the volga, its hyper interesting I admit.
I'm from somewhere inside ze anglosaxonosphere.. I liked the name of "Vladimir" since I was little.
Still, that didn't mean the mob had a clear title to the site. Land is precious in India, and someone else may have a better claim.
In any case, after reading as much as possible about what the findings of the archaeologists are regarding the temple, about all we know is that it was done in Indian style, and that could involve MANY DIFFERENT GROUPS, and even if Hindu, it could still involve MANY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF HINDUS.
My money is on it having served as a Buddhist or Jain temple as its last use before acquisition by the Moslems.
If I say Jews are not barbarians, then they are not barbarians. What do Moslems have to do with that? Obviously NOTHING!
The sellers were the Vikings.
Nonsense. Islam is less of a religion than a system of military conquest. It is perfectly appropriate to respond to conquest with destruction of shrines built as a result of a military victory. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Koran. there is absolutely nothing holy about it in Islam. The mosques there are as out of place as were Soviet tanks in Prague. In 1967, the Imam of Jerusalem yelled from the al Asqa mosque's loudpeakers to drive the Jews into the sea. This is not a holy man, but a terrorist. Likewise note how mosques were used in Falljuah and elsewhere in Iraq, as munitions depots and bases of military operations.
OK Brother Maynard, hope you consulted the Book of Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one before embarking on an international mosque demolition program, like you intend to do.
Just to refresh your memory...
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."
And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.
Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.
Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.
Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Explain away the core of the evil, the endorsement of wanton sectarian violence against Muslims. It seems almost Jihadist, non Muslim style.
Well, some of my eastern european pals are mighty pissed off with muslims (esp Turks) whom they specifically blame for kidnapping and selling young children as slaves (in the past of course).. wonder why they arent angry with Vikings though.
Just wondering if you are an Indian Hindu or American Jew ?
on some boards its usually just short of classic pythonesque lingo-- "I wave my private parts at your aunties".
The Vikings had much better press agents.
Yes of course ;) I'm interested in learning more about this topic, could you refer me to some website or just write to me at leisure about this "viking terrorization of the slavs".
The other great Slavic center which was under the control of the Mongols ended up being called "UKRAINE". They had their own entanglements with the RUSS, but were not conquered by them for a number of centuries. Remarkably the people in both Russia and Ukraine speak very similar languages, so we have to assume we are talking about the same Slavonic maidens who found themselves sold into sexual slavery (and to wash dishes) to the Turks!
Once you get into early Russian history you will find that there are disputes about the place of the Russ, and whether they were good or bad for the place. Some of the wilder claims have sound archeology to back them up, while some of the more prosaic beliefs have left no evidence.
How the RUSS came to be Orthodox is one of those things you'd think would be readily understood ~ that missionaries would bravely face the Vikings, preach the Gospels, and then baptize them as Christians to march off into a brighter, cleaner and fresher future.
Didn't work that way. The last (open) Thor worshipers in Europe were still in business along the Volga in the 1700s!
I suspect the transformation was very slow due to the nature of the relationship of the Russ with their victims/subjects.
BTW, it's really not a surprise that a really Swedish looking guy like Gorbachev led them out of the dark. He knows who he is if no one else does. Yeltsin is, on the other hand, a Great Russian ~ that is, non-Russ.
Not sure the transformation has finished. Folks more expert in some of the more mystical aspects of Russian history might provide us some guidance in the matter.
So, as an answer, start with Russia, History, 1200s+
I found this info about the RUS, on wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_%28people%29
Apparently, their origin is disputed, just as you say. Western scholars believe them to have Nordic Ancestry, while Slavanic historians contend that they were indigenous slavs.
Please clarify another thing (I couldnt understood you clearly), do you imply that the RUS (being of viking ancestry, as you say) sold their slavanic neighbors to the turks ?
They were merchants ~ with a lengthy history of engaging in human slavery.
Part of the problem of dealing with the Viking raiders is their profound separation of society into "man's world" and "woman's world", with all of the women servants to the men, and within "man's world", a leadership elite that got the first share of the booty, and the rest of the men considered servants.
The status of women in Viking society was AT THE BOTTOM. These guys would sell their own daughters, much as they'd sell a cow, or a pig.
If you read through the Icelandic Sagas you will find that most of this crowd of "outcasts" consisted of a handful of Swedish/Norwegian criminals, their sailors, and a flock of Irish slaves!
THe same stuff went on in Russia.
There's a classic book with the simple title "History of the Vikings" out there ~ has about 500 pages ~ you can read it in a weekend. BTW, if you read Shakespeare's "MacBeth", you would have encountered "Lady MacBeth". This co-foundress of the Alexander clan in the Highlands was the daughter of a Viking King! If you ever wondered how it was she became so nasty, you read that "History of the Vikings" and you'll understand her more than you ever imagined.
On the good side, the Vikings founded the first cities and towns in Ireland, and pretty much organized, or forced the organization of the wild Slavic tribes riding the steppes in Russia!
Definitely some interesting folks.
Gotcha.. incidentally, there happen to be more than one books by the same title (a history of the vikings).. which one do you recommend ?
The "blood type" thread the other night demonstrated that most Scanderhoovians have A+ type blood. The Sa'ami in the far North have the greatest incidence in the world coming in at anywhere from 50% to 90%.
Further South on the peninsula it drops down to 35%.
Notice that Denmark has a far lower percentage of A+ type blood. That's because they aren't really the same people.
Remember what I said about slavery, and Scandinavian Vikings selling even their daughters ~ we must still explain why it is Danes speak a modern version of Old West Gothic ~ and there it is ~ mothers teach their language to their children.
Must have been one heck of a lot of women sold to the Danes to have their base language changed.
As someone who is not religious and on the side of science, I am always amused by people who selectively deride others for their religious beliefs. Seen in a rational manner, the story of Mohammed on a flying horse or Jesus coming back to life are ridiculous too. In fact, the existence of Jesus is itself suspect.
Let me put things in perspective for you. Thousands of years ago, some Arab political factions were quarrelling among each other and one faction claimed that they were followers of someone named Jesus. A few centuries later, the fighting hadn't yet stopped and another political faction claimed that its leader had flown on a horse to heaven and got instructions from god and the pilot of this horse is the final prophet!
1300 years layer, the fighting still hasn't stopped. Both sides are still fighting over who the last prophet is. These so called prophets are dead and gone but the fighting still goes on.
What is worse is that the Arabs have recruited others to fight this war on their behalf (that is what conversion to Christianity was about). Somewhere down the line, the Arabs switched sides (i.e., left Christianity) and are now pitted against the very people they recruited and dragged into the war!
Don't you find all of this silly?
I am not religious and I find a lot of things in Hinduism silly too, but the question at Ayodhya is not about Ram. It is about Islam displaying its power in an obscene manner by invading other countries and building victory monuments. That is what was pulled down by Hindus a few years back. It was pulled down because asking that Muslims return the land in a civilized manner will not work. The only way it could be taken back was using force and that is why it was done in that manner. Sure, Muslims feel hurt about it, but so what?
It's about Ram. Otherwise there'd be absolutely no Hindu interest in the site.
I'd suggest that it began somewhere in the prophet Jonah's day when he encountered the same Great Fish who'd previously saved Ma-Nu from crashing into the mountain during the worldwide flood.
Those are all quite clearly ancient Sumerian divine revelations that predate Hinduism and Islam by many centuries.
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