United Church of Christ Considering Divestment from Israel

See, there's something we don't have in Judiasm as strongly as Christians: the idea of salvation. Notice how there are very few, if any, Jewish evangelicals. We don't really seek to convert anyone, although we do accept converts. This is part of the idea of salvation through good works for Judiasm (G-d judging you for your own life) vs. salvation through Jesus for Christians (where he puts himself in your place before G-d, and therefore G-d sees perfection). In both, salvation comes from the Lord, but in the former, salvation depends on your own free will and your own actions, while in the latter, you need to be Saved no matter who you are, if I understand correctly.

Christians, and I speak a general sense, believe that no one can be saved by good works. In fact, Christians, again I speak in the most general terms, believe that our best works are so tainted by self-interest as to be but filthy rags in the sight of God.

Since we cannot attain salvation by our own efforts, God sent His Son to die as a propitiation for our sins. Sin must be paid for; it simply cannot be forgiven; the moral order of the universe cannot allow sins to remain unpunished; nor can God, a perfect Being, have fellowship with someone corrupted by sin; and we believe that God desires to have fellowship with us as He had with Adam and Eve before the fall. Therefore, either we can pay for sin ourselves, or God through the atoning death of Jesus pays the debt on our behalf. How the death of one Man two centuries ago could atone for all past, present, and future sins is a mystery beyond human understanding. But for a God who can create the universe, such an action is possible.

Salvation is a free gift of God's grace because of His love for mankind, His most precious creation. Good works are the product and evidence of salvation. Rewards in heaven are the product of good works. That is why it is possible for the worst murderer to be saved, if he professes faith in Jesus as Messiah and repents of his sins.

That seems somewhat contradictory to me. Why would you offer G-d filthy rags, and how are filthy rags (metaphorically speaking), evidence of salvation?

Where does that leave free will? Doesn't that imply that without accepting Jesus, all you do is worthless crap, and if you won't accept Jesus then you might as well do whatever you want, since you're damned anyway? Doesn't it also imply that no matter what you do, you're fine so long as you accept Jesus and repent? And that you are not responsible for your actions (since it won't matter, and it's the same result... etc. etc.)

Or someone who won't accept Jesus as messiah? Are all those who do not accept Jesus as messiah condemned to damnation?

That seems somewhat contradictory to me. Why would you offer G-d filthy rags, and how are filthy rags (metaphorically speaking), evidence of salvation?

Where does that leave free will? Doesn't that imply that without accepting Jesus, all you do is worthless crap, and if you won't accept Jesus then you might as well do whatever you want, since you're damned anyway?

Thats the whole point though, prisoners to sin we could not lift ourself up from it, no mater how just. Christ sacrifice changes that. The just man, by imitating Christ can conform himself to God's will. Think of it as a legal precedent, though thats a rather dry analogy, for we can invoke Christ as our advocate, and prove it by good works. This is why faith is the requirement for the works to have any validity since you cannot be invoking Christ through them if you don't even believe. On the other hand good works are necessary as they are a part of God's will, and if you do believe in Him, not just in the metaphorical sense but as a great treasure to hold close to the heart, it's incumbent on you to live your life that way as best you can. As it is written in James II: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Good works, assuming they are in voluntary submission to God's will (the aspect in which human Free Will comes in), are valid since the act has as a motive the invocation of the Redeemer. It's also tied in with the Christian desire to be spiritually joined with the creator, for if we do good things in the capacity of God's loyal servants we can be justified in His sight even though it is through, by, and in accordance with His will to begin with, and not of our own.

A smug, arrogant, and self-satisfied person will never hear, regardless of the power of the witness, for his heart is hardened.

It is for the Lord to deem them smug and arrogant, no excuse for you or any Christian to hate or reprove them. God will reprove them Himself, it is for us as Christians to witness to His mercy, His vengeance is His alone. Besides it comes too close to pride to appoint yourself judge over the unbelievers.

I know how hard it can be not to reprove those who remain obstinate to God, it seems too monstrous an attitude to a true believer. And, if God engineers a time and a place for you to reprove them, and be His instrument in that regard, fine, but it's not a position which a Christian should enjoy, and certainly not something he should seek of his own will. To a Catholic that is the responsibility of God's shepherds, to lead and reprove on occasion, but it's a cross to bear not a glory for one's self.

You should not have to tell someone he's a fool for not believing, simply show them they are. So don't think of them as being smug and arrogant, true or not it has nothing to do with you, and you could pollute your own faith with arrogance. Remember when you see the obstinate that there, but for quite literally the Grace of God, go you.

Filthy rags should be understood metaphorically. Good deeds without accepting Jesus as Messiah are tinged with self-interest to such as degree as to make them worthless. Can you claim that you have ever done a good deed without some small thought of self-interest, if only at the pride of commission? I know I cannot.

One is free to reject or accept Jesus as Messiah, but since God is omniscient, He knows who will accept His free offer of salvation and who will reject it. God is not "surprised" by human actions. Free will, as with other doctrines, is a mystery.

The only unforgivable sin is the rejection of God's offer of salvation. In theory, before his execution any mass murderer could repent and be forgiven. In practice, sin is cumulative and addictive; once one commits a series of terrible crimes, it is unlikely that forgiveness will be requested. For example, all of the men hung for war crimes at Nuremberg were raised in the Christian tradition. All could have repented. Yet sin and the denial of sin had consumed each man to such a point that none - as far as we know - asked God to forgive their crimes and sins. If you have read anything about the trials, you know that almost without exception (I think Albert Speer made a confession of sorts) each man attempted to justify his actions by claiming that he was following orders. Self justification is neither confession nor repentance.

A person who has accepted Jesus as Messiah should not want to commit sin. All humans will sin, but a believer should desire should to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. Of course, as long as we live in the flesh and are subject to its temptations, the conformation will be incomplete. A believer who sins repeatedly and willfully and unrepentantly gives evidence of an insincerity of belief. If you want to read more about this, I suggest Romans, Chapters 6-8. You will enjoy Paul's arguments. He is a excellent writer who reasons closely.

If you do not accept Jesus as Messiah, you will be judged by your actions. Is that what you wish: to stand before the judgment seat of God and have all your thoughts, words, and deeds for every moment of your life examined and weighed? Remember: an omniscient God will not accept falsehoods, equivocations, or evasions. One cannot argue with God over the meaning of "is", as Bill Clinton attempted. Are you so confident of your own righteousness that you are willing to risk eternal separation from God on the basis solely of your own actions, words, and deeds? I know I am not. Wouldn't it be much easier to have someone else bear the penalty for your sins? which is what Jesus has done.
In ancient Israel, priests sacrificed animals to propitiate the sins of of the people. If God was willing to accept the sacrifice of animals, how much more so would He be willing to accept the sacrifice of His own Son?

How God judges the actions and thoughts of each individual who does not accept His offer of salvation, I do not know. Yet this I know. Because God is omniscient, none judged will be able to claim he has been judged unfairly. Since I am not called to make these decisions, I leave the task to God. That position may sound like an evasion to you, but faith requires a willingness to admit that some things are unknowable.

To live a true Christian life requires a transformation of the heart, mind, body, soul, and spirit. Simply to refrain from the physical commission of sin is not enough, since one can sin by one's thoughts. No one can accomplish this transformation without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is a task that is not completed in this life.

If I let someone else bear my sins, then I am abrogating responsibility. I cannot let someone else take responsibility for my failings. What kind of a man would that make me? I'm not sure if I want to be judged for my actions, but I do think I need to be. I repent of my sins, and I take pleasure in my good works (even if, as you so accurately said, they are all at least a little tinged with pride or some other self-interest), but I don't want someone else suffering on my behalf, and I trust in G-d that he will understand and forgive me my trespasses. Good works are never worthless to G-d, in my eyes.

The sacrifice of animals (and fruits and grains and all offerings) is different. The sacrifice was to offer the best of the land and of the people to G-d, to show him their esteem and their gratitude. There's two exceptions to this, the white lamb and the black lamb: one is to remember a covenant, the other is (as you said) to bear the sins of a community. But it's more symbolic than anything else.

I am not confident in my own righteousness. I could be much more righteous than I am. But I do try, even though I should try harder. And in the end, I trust in G-d. I trust in G-d's mercy, that he will see past my pride and my sins to see that I have struggled to be do the right thing, that I truly do repent of my sins, that I have done good works, for the glory of his name, and for other reasons, that I have loved mankind his children and that he will, when he looks at all of me, find me worthy to sit by his side in the world to come.

Ultimately, my salvation lies in G-d's hands, and noone else's. I must strive to make myself worthy of it in this world, so that I may be worthy of the world to come.

Personally, I do believe in evil. I am of the school of thought that evil has more to do with man's failings than with a supernatural force. People that are truly evil in G-d's sight are subject to the worst punishment of all: nothing. Nothing for eternity. They are cast alone and forgotten into the void, and they realize this. And it is for eternity. They will not be resurrected or brought into the world to come when the Messiah comes. However, this is my opinion, not Judiasm's (the not resurrected part is in keeping with Judiasm though). Judiasm doesn't maintain a belief in Hell (I do personally, but not a traditional Christian Hell), and its view of evil is complicated (summed up and GROSSLY oversimplified, there -is- evil, but it occurs through the misuse of freewill and the perversion of God's laws, or not -acting- in accordance with God's laws).

Basically, with Judiasm, you work to secure a place in the world to come, not out of fear of punishment necessarily.

God does not forgive sin but forgives sinners. Sin must be paid for. Are you willing to accept eternal separation from God because of sin? Before you answer, think long and hard about the consequences.

Certainly you know the all but impossible task of keeping the law. I know that devout Orthodox Jews spend their lives attempting to live in conformity to the law. Do you follow this tradition? If you do, which parts of the law do you neglect, however inadvertently? What are the consequences for the most inadvertent sin? Are you willing to be punished for every neglectful or inadvertent sin by action or thought? If you do not follow the Orthodox tradition, why not?

You are man enough to accept responsibility for your own sins. That is admirable. Most humans are unwilling to do this. They evade responsibility, they rationalize their actions. Knowing this, God sent Jesus to pay for their sins -and everyone elses - because of His love for mankind. Does it seem unreasonable that a God who loved the world enough to create it would act in this way?

God did what humanity could not do for itself - He took the all sins upon Himself and paid the price for sin Himself. He acted this way because He is a just and perfect God who desires intimate fellowship with all mankind but cannot have it with imperfect and sinful creatures. Remember: God does not grade on the curve; its all or nothing.

People willingly suffer on behalf of others every day. Most parents would die for their children. Friends die for friends. Soldiers die for people they have never met, as do firemen and police officers. Humanitarians devote their lives and fortunes attempting to ease the suffering of others and sometimes die in the attempt. If frail and fault-ridden human beings are willing to act in this manner, why shouldn't a loving God? Would you die for another? What would be your feelings toward someone who died for you?

If the sacrifice of the black lamb was only symbolic, how were the sins of the community atoned for? Symbolism is not substance, and God cannot be mocked. Who paid the price for the sins of the people? Did God simply forget the sins? Shrug the sin off and let it go?

How confident are you of your ability to make yourself worthy? Are you as able as Moses, Elijah, Isaiah? Perhaps as David? All these men were acutely and painfully aware of their inability to please God. Why would you want to take so much responsibility upon yourself, when it could be borne by Another?

It's not a matter of what I can do, or what I would rather do, as a matter of what I should do. Even if I fall short, it is my duty to at least -try- to take responsibility for my own actions, and to act well. Judiasm doesn't condemn 'sin by thought' so much as 'sin by action'. As an example, having violent thoughts is not morally wrong (from a Jewish perspective, or at the very leasts its less morally wrong than in Christianity), but acting on those thoughts and impulses are every bit as wrong as it would be in Christianity. It's VERY hard to control your thoughts, but controlling your actions is easier and within your control.

I would suffer for other people if I could (though not -all- other people). I believe that I am worthy of redemption and salvation. Also, think of it from my perspective: what kind of man would I be if I gave up my faith and my traditions and all that my family and my ancestors suffered for because someone said G-d was going to damn me unless I did. I only have their word for it. I follow the Tanakh, which is the Word of God, and I've been taught that's enough. If I did the opposite, would I become Christian (damned if I don't), Muslim (damned if I don't), or any other number of religions (I won't be reincarnated as something good if I don't, my zeta scan will pollute me, the aliens won't bring me to their paradise, etc.)? I put more stock in Christianity and its teachings than in other religions, for a variety of reasons, and I take many of its teachings and tenets seriously, but I am not going to become Christian without some serious proof at this point. I don't mean offence, but for me to do it because of the threat of damnation would be an insult to my family, ancestors and faith and cowardly on my part. I would expect and hope that G-d expects more and better of me.

Fortitude is a cardinal virtue in Judiasm and Christianity for a reason: without it, we could not endure what G-d asks us to endure.

The lack of distinction between sin by thought and sin by action is a principal message of Jesus. For example, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

You've read the Hebrew Bible. Did any other prophet speak in such a manner? All urged Israel to return to the law, but Jesus' message is a different and transformed one.

Why would God transform the law of Moses in such a manner? What true prophet would dare preach in such a way, if God had not commanded it?
Perhaps because He had seen the disobedience of Israel and realized that the law could never keep anyone from sin. If the law cannot keep people from sin, a loving God must
"devise" another method to bring mankind out of sin and darkness.
God had seen what was prophesied by Isaiah, 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.'
God's grace - unmerited and unearned by man - was the only way to reconcile God and man. By allowing Jesus to bear the sin debt for all, He handed man redemption on a platter. All man has to do is accept it.

Controlling one's thought is difficult, and for many people impossible. For that reason, the Holy Spirit came to give man the power to accomplish what cannot be accomplished by human means alone. The goal is to transform the human spirit.
This process is a gradual one. In my case, it has been a fifteen year slog that will not be completed until death. The process has been hard, frustrating, and painful, but if I concentrate on the glory at the end, the task becomes easier and joyful.

I pray that you will receive salvation, and I applaud you caution in proceeding slowly. Proof of any religious faith is critical because what you search for is truth. All religions - even Marxism - require that some things be accepted on faith. Judaism requires that one accept that God's covenant came through Isaac and not Ishmael, as Muslims claim. Do not let the demand for absolute proof be a stumbling block.

There are Jews who have examined the claims of Jesus and found them convincing. In Atlanta, the group is called Light of Messiah. Call them, talk with them. They are a remarkable group whose faith shames me.
You can reach them at: 770-642-4706; they have a web site: www.lightofmessiah.org; or you can email them at: lightof messiah@yahoo.com.

Your concern for the feelings of your family, ancestors, and relatives is admirable. If I were in your position, I would feel the same way. But it is your life and your soul that is at stake. You, not your family, must stand before God. Jesus said, "What profit it a man if he gains the whole world and looses his immortal soul." Are you willing to lose your soul for the sake of good relations with your family?

I've read that of Jesus, and I think its a noble sentiment, if not entirely accurate. Therefore, I personally choose to accept his words as a metaphor. But sin by action for me is far more serious. I've thought of killing people I didn't like, especially when I was younger. I didn't, because its an evil action (and thought) and the law forbids it. As for what I'll sacrifice for my family, I don't know yet. Let me just say that if I abandon my family and my values easily in this life, without just cause, I will be losing my soul, a sentiment I am sure you can understand.

G-d is omniscient and if he thought the law would have never stopped anyone, he would not have given it. All I can do is be the best I can be, do good works and offer my life to make G-d's earth a better place, to show that I have taken his lessons to heart. As when I am judged, he will not ask me "Why were you not Jeremiah, or Solomon" but"'Why were you not Alexander?" I do not want to be unable to answer him as best I can.

Of course, sin by action is far more serious than sin by thought, but sin of any sort is separation from God. Sin by thought directly corrupts only you; sin by action usually corrupts others and involves them in sin.

If David had only "coveted" Bathsheba, the sin would have been his alone. But by his actions, David's sin involved Bathsheba, their innocent child, Uriah, Joab, and the entire nation of Israel.

How do you know that you will lose your soul, if you abandon your family? And is accepting Jesus as Messiah to abandon your family? How certain can you be of this? Your parents will always be your parents. Your brothers, your brothers. Your sisters, your sisters. You may be estranged from them, but people are often estranged from relatives for reasons that seem overpowering at the moment of estrangement but over the years dwindle to insignificance.
Tamar Jacoby in SOMEONE'S ELSE'S HOUSE relates the story of a young white woman in Atlanta who was estranged from her parents for many years because she married a black man.

Suppose you became a Buddhist, would your family disown you? Or if you had a real touch of insanity and became a Muslim? Do your parents love you enough to respect your decision? Or is their love for you conditioned on your performance of a role they chose for you?

I know you feel that estrangement is too terrible to contemplate, but haven't you ever been betrayed by your feelings? At my age, I learned to distrust my feelings because I know how disconnected from reality they often are.

Your sentiments on your role in life are overly modest. It is true that one cannot ascend on his own power to heights beyond his capacity. But an omnipotent God has a way of giving strength to people that allows them to accomplish tasks beyond their strength. Could Joseph have become chief minister of Egypt on his own strength? Or could Moses have led the Hebrews out of Egypt by relying on his own ability?
Both of those men had a heart for God and recognized their own frailties - most importantly, they were not afraid to allow God to use them.

God has a way of using the weak of the world to shame the strong. Indeed, He chose the descendants of Abraham - certainly not the most powerful or numerous of the world - as His vehicle to reveal Himself to the world.

How do you know how much you could accomplish if God worked through you?

In this case, I meant lose my soul in the metaphorical sense, for without due cause, I would be abandoning my values and virtues for my own selfish reason. And I abandon my principles, what do I have?

Your example of David and Bathsheba is a good one, by the by, that illustrates your point well. I still maintain that sin by thought is a far less serious infraction than sin by action. As I said before, it's hard to control your thoughts (impossible in fact, though it is possible to condition your mind to not think certain thoughts), but your will gives you the power to resist sinning by action, if you are strong enough.

And, as to what I will accomplish, ask me again in about seventy or eighty years.

What do you consider due cause? What do you consider as unselfish reasons?

All sin separates us from God. How He judges it is another matter, but why take the chance of putting yourself under judgment when someone else can bear the penalty of your sin?

There is an old Christian saying, "Keep short accounts with God." That is, since one never knows when one will be called to answer, its best to confess and repent.

You are correct: many sins only exist as thoughts. However, thoughts left unchecked often lead to action. Years ago, I read SISTER CARRIE by Theodore Dreiser. One of the characters in the novel thought so long and hard about stealing money entrusted to his care that eventually he could not resist the impulse. He coveted the money long before he ever took it from the safe.

Jesus redefined the commandments because sin existing as thought can lead to action. By removing the act of stealing from the hand to its real location - the mind - Jesus allows us to escape from the trap of justification and rationalization. He extends grace to those who desirve justice.

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