"H,arrrr ... me thinks thar be tha very moral relativism
wha the Holy Father hiself's bin speakin' agin !
Spiritual harpoons ta tha ready ~ prepar ta take on board
wha sep'rated brethren abandon tha foul sinkin' ship !"
Posted on 06/23/2005 1:15:56 PM PDT by GMMAC
This is why we rejected them back when they were only forcing female ordination and a Unitarian Prayer Book on us. This had to follow, we could see that and we simply renounced them. Thing is, most people just go along so we're still small in numbers.
What is discouraging is all the attention being paid to this wrangle. I am not convinced that open rebuke and even excommunication would have one whit of effect with either ECUSA or the ACC. They have managed to reduce their conservative wing to a meaningless and impotent minority over whom they exercise the worst kind of majoritarian tyranny. There is no counterweight to bring those churches back to corporate sanity much less anything remotely orthodox. What ends up happening here is just one more example of the schadenfreude generated by the kulturkampf, which isn't very edifying either.
I really wish I knew what I could say to improve any of this except to note that all that is increased is mutual hostility and distrust among those who are attempting to restore the Anglican Church to Apostolic fellowship and doctrine.
Sigh...pray for us, St. Joseph!!
In Christ,
Deacon Paul+
I'm not Anglican, so I'm rather ignorant about this: if the Anglican leadership in England kicked the US & Canadian churches out, what happens to the actual properties?
I believe I've read that local churches that refused to recognize the legitimacy of Bishop Robinson have been kicked out and lost their properties. Sure would be nice to see that happen to the other side on a national scale.
"Come home to Rome. You'll be glad you did."
As an Anglican (my VERY conservative Episcopal church was kicked out by our pathetic liberal Bishop and joined the Anglican church directly --- search "Episcopal" here on freep and read about Midland, TX), there would be serious theological difficulties "re-joining" the Roman church, in no small part:
1. Despite recent pronouncements of concilitory nature, Anglicans reject the continuing virginity of Mary as contrary to scripture (and pretty much everything else added around Mary ---- she was blessed above all woman, all right, mother of Jesus, but just a woman. Also, per black letter scriputre, only Jesus was sinless.
Obviously, you disagree on this point. Wars have been fought on this issue, and we won't change each others' minds. The point is: there is little or no middle ground on Mary. (Other than to say: it doesn't matter --- we agree Jesus is the Lord. How He got there is not essential to salvation.)
2. Anglicans reject RC traditions (for some RC) like praying for the dead to get them out of Purgatory. Indeed, they generally reject the idea of Purgatory altogether as without scriptural basis.
Again, little middle ground, other than I think a lot of R.C. theologians are coming to the conclusion that Purgatory concept was created with the good intention of preventing people from thinking Salvation was License to sin.
3. To Anglicans, every Christian is a "saint." Capital-letter "Saints" are really good Christians whose example we should follow: e.g., from Rite I, " . . follow the example of St. X . . . and all your saints, etc, but one does not pray to them or seek intervention from them. Anglicans pray directly to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
Finally, remember, while Anglicans were technically part of the RC church starting fairly early, the Anglican church got started on its own --- its chief core being the Celtic Church (allegedly founded by Joseph of Aramathia).
Even while part of the RC, it was a rebel --- with a distinctly different structure (married friars being one example and monks being the other). It was very populist and democratic. Its bishops bucked Rome early and often --- doing things like printing the Bible in English, for example, and teaching people the Bible directly, instead of filtered by Catchesim.
The oft-told story of Henry VIII creating a church to satisfy his lusts is baloney. Henry VIII co-opted an existing movement (for his own purposes, certainly).
Long and short, until Christ comes back and unifies the Universal Church --- fixing the problems with ALL of the flawed human denominations (be they Roman, Anglican, or Southern Baptist) --- reuninification ain't gonna happen.
Queens For A Day
Welcome to the lightside!
Primarily there is an OPTION to pray to the Capital Letter Saints to intercede for us with God if we so choose. I don't know about this praying to get the dead out of purgatory. It was explained to me that if we can ask someone on earth to pray for us, we can also ask someone in Heaven to pray for us. The only difference between the Cap S Saints and all the other saints of God are that we can be sure the Cap S Saints are there, we don't really know with the rest. I don't know that the Anglican church is so much better than the Episcopal Church other than it hasn't gone so far over the edge. I'm glad you're happy in your decision. I hope you're not just "playing" church like the piskies are, though many of them would desperately like it to be otherwise, have even convinced themselves it is otherwise.
*snort*
I guess it would be better if they didn't do it.
The correct way in my view is to try to work it out, and if all options are exhausted, then break up.
"I don't know about this praying to get the dead out of purgatory."
That may be a Hispanic thing (my chief exposure to RC).
No, we are not "playing church," we're serious:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1417468/posts
christchurchmidland.org
They remind me a bit of Casey Martin, the handicapped golfer who sued to use a golf cart in the U.S. Open, successfully arguing before a non-golfing judge that the walking was not a factor in the final score.
Anyone who has walked and played a 7,000-yard course knows differently. But Martin, who claimed to be dedicated to golf, did more damage to the sport than anyone in memory, forcing it into the courts, making a competitive sport abide by the rules of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
As said, we will never agree on this issue, but consider the following:
There are a number of passages in the New Testament that argue against the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Note the following:
Matthew affirms that Mary was found to be with child “before [she and Joseph] came together” (Mt. 1:18). The term “came together” (from sunerchomai) includes the idea of sexual intimacy (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5; see Danker, 970). The implication clearly is that ultimately, they “came together.” H.L. Ellison comments that the construction is “incompatible with the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary” (1188).
Matthew declares that Joseph “knew not” (i.e., was not sexually intimate with; cf. Gen. 4:1) Mary “until [heos hou] she had given birth to a son” (1:25). While the expression heos hou does not absolutely demand that Joseph and Mary were intimate after Jesus’ birth, that would be the normal conclusion, unless contextual considerations indicated otherwise (cf. 2 Sam. 6:23). In fact, “elsewhere in the New Testament (17:9 24:39; cf. John 9:18) the phrase (heos hou) followed by a negative always implies that the negated action did take place later” (Lewis, 1.42). There is no valid reason why Matthew 1:25 should be the exception.
In Luke 2:7, Jesus is called Mary’s “firstborn” child. While the term prototokon does not demand unequivocally that Mary had other children, this term “most naturally suggests” that she did (Geldenhuys, 103). If the sustained virginity of Mary is such a crucial theological point, why did not Luke simply say that she brought forth her “only” son? That certainly would have settled the issue.
There are several passages that mention the siblings of Jesus (Mt. 12:46ff; 13:55-56). Catholic apologists appeal to the fact that the term “brother” (adelphos) is sometimes used in a broader, kindred sense, e.g., “cousins.” While adelphos (which literally means, “out of the same womb”) is employed loosely on occasion in some literature, in the New Testament adelphos is never used for a “cousin.” The word anepsioi signifies that relationship (cf. Col. 4:10).
Moreover, Jesus is said to have had “sisters” (Mt. 13:56 - adelphe). Why should it be assumed that Matthew’s use of “mother” was literal, but that the terms “brothers” and “sisters” were used figuratively? If “sister” is literal in Acts 23:16 (Paul’s sister), what would compel one to view the same term in a different sense in Matthew 13:56? Terry notes: “It is an old and oft-repeated hermeneutical principle that words should be understood in their literal sense unless such literal interpretation involves a manifest contradiction or absurdity” (159).
The alleged perpetual celibate state of Joseph and Mary’s relationship is contrary to the divine ideal. Marriage, as designed by God, was intended to bring a man and woman together as “one flesh” (Gen. 2:24; cf. Mt. 19:5-6). Subsequent to the initial physical bonding is the responsibility to “render” to one another what is “due” – these terms expressing a sacred obligation (1 Cor. 7:3). If there is to be abstinence, it is to be by mutual concession, and that only temporarily (v. 5).
Moreover, many scholars have opioned that the "perpetual virginity" theory had its roots in the pagan environment of the post-apostolic age when there was a strong emphasis upon celibacy within certain heathen religions. In that day, sexual intercourse, even within marriage, sometimes carried the suspicion of sin.
In fact, Alexander Hislop has shown a remarkable concurrence between the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome, and the propensity for virginity that evolved in the digressive church of the post-apostolic period (Hislop, 223, 236-238, 250).
Most suspect, that the Roman Church was attempting to accommodate “Christianity” to paganism, in order to provide a “comfort zone” that would attract the heathen to the religion of Christ. This is an historical reality that not even Catholic scholars deny (see Attwater, 363). For an historical survey of this phenomenon, see Edward Gibbon’s famous work, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Chapter XXVIII). Gibbon concludes this chapter with these words:
“The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity” (II.70).
The old construct (whether in Greek or Latin) of "before" or "until" does not necessarily imply that the event occurred. In other words, that Mary was found to be with child before Joseph "knew" her does not imply (unlike modern English) that Joseph ever did, it simply states that the event ("knowing") did not precede the conception.
Same with "firstborn". Because that position incurred certain rights and obligations in Jewish life, it does not demand a second- or third- born child.
This sort of blows the "plain meaning" argument out of the water. You're putting what you understand to be the plain meaning in modern English into koine Greek or Latin.
Re: “There are a number of passages in the New Testament that argue against the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Note the following: Matthew affirms that Mary was found to be with child “before [she and Joseph] came together” (Mt. 1:18). The term “came together” (from sunerchomai) includes the idea of sexual intimacy (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5; see Danker, 970). The implication clearly is that ultimately, they “came together.” H.L. Ellison comments that the construction is “incompatible with the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary” (1188). “
He is wrong. It is totally inconclusive. I could say “you and I got along until now” and by this theory it would mean from this point forward we can not get along but that is not necessarily true. It is a turn of phrase nothing more. This is a case of reading more into the passage then the passage justifies. It by itself does not prevent your view point but nor does it justify it either.
Re: “Matthew declares that Joseph “knew not” (i.e., was not sexually intimate with; cf. Gen. 4:1) Mary “until [heos hou] she had given birth to a son” (1:25). While the expression heos hou does not absolutely demand that Joseph and Mary were intimate after Jesus’ birth, that would be the normal conclusion, unless contextual considerations indicated otherwise (cf. 2 Sam. 6:23). In fact, “elsewhere in the New Testament (17:9 24:39; cf. John 9:18) the phrase (heos hou) followed by a negative always implies that the negated action did take place later” (Lewis, 1.42). There is no valid reason why Matthew 1:25 should be the exception.”
The same applies here. The Evangelist is establishing the fulfillment of an Old Testament Prophecy. One could wish for more details but they may not have thought it necessary since the early Church relied on the spoken word more than the written. There was an understanding among the early Church Fathers that may have made the need for all details to be documented seem unnecessary. Books were rare and almost never used by the illiterate laity, most of whom where slaves, peasants or low ranking solders. The Scriptures were largely used by the literate priests who no doubt read them with the guidance of their superiors. Far too often people approach Scripture with a modern approach without ever considering the conditions which they were written.
Re: In Luke 2:7, Jesus is called Mary’s “firstborn” child. While the term prototokon does not demand unequivocally that Mary had other children, this term “most naturally suggests” that she did (Geldenhuys, 103). If the sustained virginity of Mary is such a crucial theological point, why did not Luke simply say that she brought forth her “only” son? That certainly would have settled the issue.”
Again the use of First born would have been necessary to establish a prophetic link. For centuries the Hebrews dedicated their firstborn (if a male child) as commanded of them in the desert during the Exodus. Every faithful Jewish woman would have done so and referred to the child as her firstborn even if the child was their only child. The Two turtle doves were also predicted and were meant to be a sign for the faithful that THIS CHILD was the Redeemer. The Evangelist was providing the proof of this and could not do so with other words. They were part of the ceremony and the prophecy.
Re: “There are several passages that mention the siblings of Jesus (Mt. 12:46ff; 13:55-56). Catholic apologists appeal to the fact that the term “brother” (adelphos) is sometimes used in a broader, kindred sense, e.g., “cousins.” While adelphos (which literally means, “out of the same womb”) is employed loosely on occasion in some literature, in the New Testament adelphos is never used for a “cousin.” The word anepsioi signifies that relationship (cf. Col. 4:10). Moreover, Jesus is said to have had “sisters” (Mt. 13:56 - adelphe). Why should it be assumed that Matthew’s use of “mother” was literal, but that the terms “brothers” and “sisters” were used figuratively? If “sister” is literal in Acts 23:16 (Paul’s sister), what would compel one to view the same term in a different sense in Matthew 13:56? Terry notes: “It is an old and oft-repeated hermeneutical principle that words should be understood in their literal sense unless such literal interpretation involves a manifest contradiction or absurdity” (159).”
As to the original words in the Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew texts I am forced, like most, to rely on those who have the training. And there are others with the training who dispute the above. If you have that sort of training in ancient languages please let us all know. Until then I have to rely on experts that say the opposite of the above. I do know Abraham refers to Lot as his brother when another part of the Bible it is clear they are Uncle and Nephew. Also Isaac is sent away by his mother to HER brother’s house but when Isaac gets there he refers to his Uncle as HIS brother. This is a common practice in the Old Testament and is still a common practice in the Middle East today. Besides the simple evidence that almost every single Protestant Founder and theologian held the view Mary remained a virgin until death is an overwhelming body of evidence. The shear recent nature of this theory is cause for skepticism. The 20th century has been a disaster for faith and I just do not trust modern Biblical scholarship. Too much agenda and too little substance. IF there were a few more theologians from earlier eras that held your view it would still be an unresolved issue at best but as it is the body of scholars Catholic and Protestant are against you.
Re: “The alleged perpetual celibate state of Joseph and Mary’s relationship is contrary to the divine ideal. Marriage, as designed by God, was intended to bring a man and woman together as “one flesh” (Gen. 2:24; cf. Mt. 19:5-6). Subsequent to the initial physical bonding is the responsibility to “render” to one another what is “due” – these terms expressing a sacred obligation (1 Cor. 7:3). If there is to be abstinence, it is to be by mutual concession, and that only temporarily (v. 5).”
Matthew 19:12 Christ speaks on the most holy and desired state of life for the faithful. Saint Paul says the same. I will let Christ’s words refute your position:
Matthew 19:12 “For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.”
There is nothing wrong with marriage and sex within the bond of matrimony but there is a higher calling for those who can bear it.
Re: “Moreover, many scholars have opioned that the "perpetual virginity" theory had its roots in the pagan environment of the post-apostolic age when there was a strong emphasis upon celibacy within certain heathen religions. In that day, sexual intercourse, even within marriage, sometimes carried the suspicion of sin. In fact, Alexander Hislop has shown a remarkable concurrence between the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome, and the propensity for virginity that evolved in the digressive church of the post-apostolic period (Hislop, 223, 236-238, 250). Most suspect, that the Roman Church was attempting to accommodate “Christianity” to paganism, in order to provide a “comfort zone” that would attract the heathen to the religion of Christ. This is an historical reality that not even Catholic scholars deny (see Attwater, 363). For an historical survey of this phenomenon, see Edward Gibbon’s famous work, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Chapter XXVIII). Gibbon concludes this chapter with these words: “The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity” (II.70).”
Gibbons was not a theologian and was not a fan of the RCC as was true of most Englishmen of his day. Nothing like a good slander (pagan rituals in the Catholic Church) to undermine the opposition. There is evidence the Jews had sects that practiced celibacy and the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls are one example yet the detractors of the Church only noticed the practice in pagan societies. Funny they should do so, evidence of an agenda? Was not Saint Paul and his words not enough or is the intention to include Saint Paul among those who looked to pagan practices for guidance? These opinions are not very convincing and highly suspect IMHO.
We are NOT Episcopalian. We are not Roman Catholic. We are Anglican Catholic, Apostolic, Tridentine, and traditional.
When I hear the RCC tone down its assertion that prayers to Mary are required of their followers in order to obtain absolution (as if the Eucharist were not enough!), then I might be willing to hear what the RCC has to say about Anglicans and their view of Mary.
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