[Pyro7480]

This is a non-political subject that could start a flame war. ;-)

[Pyro7480]

Ping!

[LIConFem]

Hey, if I had that much talent in any given area, I'd be full of myself too! ;o)

[Oberon]

From the speculations of Pythagoras about the "music of the spheres" in ancient Greece onwards, most western musicians had agreed that musical beauty was based on a mysterious connection between sound and mathematics, and that this provided music with an objective goal, something that transcended the individual composer's idiosyncrasies and aspired to the universal.

Hence Bach. Where are my Brandenbergs when I need them? 'Zounds...

[HarryCaul]

Wow, what an utterly wrong point of view.

Maybe if I leave this post I'll remember to come back to this topic when I have some time.

[steveo]

Audience: "Hey Beethoven yer a narcissistic hooligan"

Beethoven: "what???"

[stop_fascism]

I'll play. Although Mozart wrote some pretty nice stuff, music has been on a downhill spiral since the old Bach died.

[Borges]

This is generally well known. By all acounts, L.V. had a nasty disposition and was not a pleasant person to be around.

[2banana]

So....whadda saying? He was seduced by the dark side?

[Richard Axtell]

No Beethoven, no rock and roll. Roll over, Beethoven.

[SMARTY]

Oh. Can't surpass the master, so you defame him??? Is that it?

[wideawake]

While overstated, I tend to agree with the thesis.

Palestrina, Bach, Haydn and Mozart represent the pinnacle of human musical achievement - every path taken by professional composers since then, while often diverting (Sibelius, Mahler and Bartok spring to mind), has been a blind one.

I nurture a secret hope that Arvo Part is providing a signpost that will lead us back.

[cartan]

The author of that article is a total idiot. Beethoven's music was perfectly designed and constructed, just listen to his Great Fugue, for instance. And the same goes for Schönberg and Webern; you may not like them, but calling their music "atonal" is just utterly ignorant. Looks like Beethoven is just over his head.

If he had been talking about Wagner, that would be another matter...

[jpl]

Beethoven was indeed a tortured soul, but tortured souls usually make the best artists.

Give me Beethoven over the often vapid music of Mozart any day.

[Borges]

With Beethoven, however, we leave behind the lofty aspirations of the Enlightenment and begin the descent into the narcissistic inwardness of Romanticism. Mozart gives you music that asks to be appreciated for its own sake, and you don't need to know anything about the composer's life to enjoy it. Beethoven's music, on the other hand, is all about himself - it is simply a vehicle for a self-indulgent display of bizarre mood swings and personal difficulties.

Patently wrong. Although Beethoven certainly brought psychological and dramatic depths to music it hadn't before possessed, he always thought in strictly musical terms...form, rhythm, meter, tone. You really don't need to know anything about the man to enjoy his music. Unlike say the vulgar musico-painting of Richard Strauss.

[CauseEverything]

Oh yes, the "noble" Pythagoreans. Does this guy realize how retarded he sounds when he says that? I don't actually care either way, but... whatever.

One time Beethoven was giving a recital and he started to improvise. He must have sounded like an angel because everyone in the audience was in tears. Then all of a sudden, he stopped cold and turned and started laughing at them. I don't remember where I heard this anecdote, or even if it's true, but I love him for it.

[Maceman]

Just goes to show that even the most brilliantly talented arts super stars are not to be assumed to be equally brilliant when it comes to dispensing advice on political issues and social policies.

[Strategerist]

This is a non-political subject that could start a flame war. ;-)

Grabbing popcorn and watching...

[timsbella]

And he's different from contemporary musicians how?

Oh right, he had talent.

Why doesn't anyone make the same remark about Marx, who was Mr. Leech off his wife's money and run down the street breaking street light fixtures? Now there's a no talent bastard that truly was and continues to be a hooligan.

End of rant...

[moatilliatta]

Dylan Evans is a senior lecturer in intelligent autonomous systems at the University of the West of England.

????? Why have the Guardian picked a lecturer in intelligent autonomous systems to write about Beethoven?

[headsonpikes]

For what it's worth, this is essentially Spengler's view on Western music recapitulated by Dylan Evans, and an intriguing analysis it is!