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Pardon my tardiness - I've been doing work I'm supposedly too lazy to do. You smeared me as a Communist once, a Socialist twice and complained that I wasn't being clear enough. Please allow me to clarify:

5. Any amnesty, pseudo-amnesty, "not an amnesty" or further overlooking of existent law will result in millions more illegal aliens flooding into an already alien-saturated environment. Invasion numbers were kept to under one million per year until the President's speech promoting "matching willing workers to willing employers" reverberated from the tip of South America and back again. After that the invading hordes grew threefold at a time our government was supposed to be increasing citizens' safety against Islamic fanaticism on all fronts.

Gross abuse happened post-1986 and it's going to happen again if we don't oppose every effort to legalize, legitimize or "normalize" these gate crashers. They're depending on "go-alongs" like yourself to pressure our government to reward them for their wrongful behavior/cutting in line/law breaking. Their presence artificially suppresses wages in the fields they gravitate to, increases disease vectors (where our children in public schools are at primary risk) and burdens the taxpayers with expenses their scofflaw employers should foot.

Where is this amazing place where illegal aliens raise property values (I'm not talking about Americans of Latin descent, just illegal aliens who's burgeoning numbers keep those American's wages flatlined). Pretty odd that the properties in San Diego rose sharply after the border barrier there was seriously improved. In my own city I've witnessed a main thoroughfare lined with traditional, well-kept neighborhoods and thriving businesses reduced to illegal enclaves rife with litter, used car lots, residential over-parking, overcrowded schools, more used car lots, sirens constantly wailing at all hours due to crime and stupidity, gang graffiti, chop shops, more used car lots, native citizens imprisoning themselves in their homes if they can't afford to move...my perception of what's happening differs from yours 180 degrees.

But hey, you go right on ahead with whatever helps you get along. For a person accusing ME of being a Red you share a lot of that "white success guilt" stuff with the flaming Liberals. Impeding people who see the problem and try to fix it does not help any citizens rich or poor. Racists, xenophobes, bigots...call us whatever you like but remember that we are the line between you and those who'd love to take everything you've earned away and redistribute it - the true Socialists of Aztlan and their pets. They are the radical anti-Semites I was speaking of and their connected to every other "Hispanic rights" group that exists. And there's a lot of them.

-Your friend, the drunk on the doorstep

I don't usually cut and paste replies, but you are like me in that your replies are long. Don't take that as a criticism. It ain't. It is just an explanation of why I answer as I do below.

You smeared me as a Communist once, a Socialist twice and complained that I wasn't being clear enough.

If you think I am calling you a socialist (TWICE even!) and a Communist, then it is I who am not being clear. I don't accuse you of being those things. The fact that you are on FR would make me pretty sure you are not, in and of itself. I am saying your ARGUMENT that cheap labor is corrupting is a socialist argument. In fact, it is. There is no such thing as a "fair" wage, which we must protect against "unfair" workers being willing to undercut. The true value of any commodity, be it work, management skills, commodities, finished products or services, is determined by the market. To argue that the market is "corrupted" by the forces which make the market (labor bidding for work) is a socialist argument. That fact is irrefutable. It doesn't mean you are a socialist. It just means that it is a socialist argument. The socialist camp is motivated in this respect primarily by fear that the free market will allow the sky to fall and we need the state to "protect" us from the "exploitation" of the plutocrats. I see many freedome loving posters giving their free market convictions the heave ho when it comes to immigration issues. They look at the PROMISE that free markets will in fact lift the standard of EVERYONE, and balance that against the fear mongering of the socialists who proclaim that our standard of living will be subverted because Pablo is willing to work for much less money....., and they go with the fear. I didn't buy it when I made 8,000 a year and was reading Noam Chomsky. I don't see why I ought to buy the same drivel now. Markets work, protecting us from market forces destroys markets. My sneers about the "subclass of indentured servants" belonging in DAILY WORKER stands. Doesn't mean you are a Communist. It is saying that the accusation itself is shrill, emotionally manipulative, bereft of supporting data, and false. If I want to read a dithyramb on how the evil globalist corporatists are permanently oppressing the starving masses with language like "subclass of indentured servants" (a situation that NOWHERE exists in the USA), I usually go to some communist rag. It was another way of saying "That kind of rant is beneath you. You can do better. Please refrain." There is nothing "mean" about telling you your argument sucks, nor does it cast aspersions on you, personally. At least, it was not MEANT to cast personal aspersions. I want to deal with the next objection in a new post if I may.

Since your objections are covering a WIDE variety of issues in any given paragraph, I again beg your pardon for my method of answering below: I am NOT trying to disrespect or misrepresent you, but rather to deal with the objections themselves in what my poor brain classifies as orderly. That is the reason for the selective quotes. I am trying to group your objections together. If, in doing so, I am not fair to you, please say so.

Any amnesty, pseudo-amnesty, "not an amnesty" or further overlooking of existent law will result in millions more illegal aliens flooding into an already alien-saturated environment. Invasion numbers were kept to under one million per year until the President's speech promoting "matching willing workers to willing employers" reverberated from the tip of South America and back again.

Ok, I will buy that if you can answer one simple question: If an alien seeking to enter America KNEW that s/he could enter LEGALLY under an open border policy (as I stated earlier: "Do you have a verifiable job waiting on you? Can you verify with papers from your government {which we check} that you have no criminal history?"... if both answers are "yes" then you come in on a renewable 6 month visa once you pass a basic health screen)...., then WHY in God's name would they "rush to get in" before some amnesty program takes effect? Your scenario just doesn't make sense at all. Immigrants want to come, and they want to come legally if they can. Arguing that they would rush to get in so that they could stay illegal makes no sense at all. In fact, under the BRACERO program 4 decades ago, illegal immigration rates fell by 80%. http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imquant.html

I will try and answer further, but I have to go exploit the masses right now.

The vast majority of illegal aliens remain irrationally loyal to a country that effectively banished them, expect us to assimilate to their language and culture in our own country, utilize every devious means possible to job the system (including falsifying and stealing SSI numbers and other identifying documentation) and have the ability to drop out and pop up elsewhere under a new identity elsewhere should they perpetrate crimes harsh enough to force our hesitant police to action. Don't forget that Mexico never extradites.

You have a gift for a "scattergun" approach of raising so many stereotypical objections in a paragraph that it is difficult to deal with them in a comprehensive way.

1) Mexicans (and other Latinos) are not "loyal to the USA"- first of all, I disagree. Although many Mexicans resent the discrimination and resentment they sense from whites and blacks here, most that I know are thankful to be here.
2)You will find some of the idiot mecha types around, especially in California, but with the preponderance of lunatic native citizens you have in CA, why is it only latino socialists who are the bad guys? There are enough white, black and asian liberals there that if every Mexican socialist were swallowed up and disappeared, the movement would not even have to take a stutter step.
3)False documentation would disappear if we simply allowed people who have jobs to get papers. To deny them legal documents of entry and then bitch because they enter to take jobs and get illegal documents is just dumb. No other way to say it.
4)I will give you the following point, though. The present schizophrenic way we have of dealing with Mexicans guarantees that if you commit a murder in Oaxaca or Cuernavaca, you can easily establish a new identity here. No one I know, even the most trenchant open borders people, argue that this situation is good. The argument is over how to stop it. Deporting 8 million plus people and having the military seal the border is, again just a plain dumbass argument.

Where is this amazing place where illegal aliens raise property values (I'm not talking about Americans of Latin descent, just illegal aliens who's burgeoning numbers keep those American's wages flatlined). Pretty odd that the properties in San Diego rose sharply after the border barrier there was seriously improved. In my own city I've witnessed a main thoroughfare lined with traditional, well-kept neighborhoods and thriving businesses reduced to illegal enclaves rife with litter, used car lots, residential over-parking, overcrowded schools, more used car lots, sirens constantly wailing at all hours due to crime and stupidity, gang graffiti, chop shops, more used car lots, native citizens imprisoning themselves in their homes if they can't afford to move...my perception of what's happening differs from yours 180 degrees.

Both our perceptions are anecdotal, ok? However, neighborhoods go from tony to slum, back to blue collar to tony to slum, etc, etc, whether there are immigrants or not. My argument is that Mexican neighborhoods that USED to be slums (they still have slummy elements) are better places to go than they used to be. My perceptions of this are based on anecdotal evidence like neighborhoods in S Raleigh NC, talks with cops in that area, and personal observations.

But hey, you go right on ahead with whatever helps you get along. For a person accusing ME of being a Red you share a lot of that "white success guilt" stuff with the flaming Liberals.

Well, at least I hope you no longer see me accusing you of being "red." As far as white success guilt goes, I have way too much legitimate guilt in other areas and way to little success to have that be a real factor. Am I legitimately guilty of being arrogant, dismissive, self-centered, and a whole mess of other suff? Sure. But those kind of character flaws transcend your economic status. They are hard wired into the circuitry and I don't think they will be alleviated by me wringing my hands over the poor hispanics, or blacks, or whoever, as I enjoy whatever meager assets I can pile up. You are shooting at the wrong target, there"

Impeding people who see the problem and try to fix it does not help any citizens rich or poor.

My argument is not that the problem should not be fixed, only on how to fix it. That should be obvious.

Racists, xenophobes, bigots...call us whatever you like but remember that we are the line between you and those who'd love to take everything you've earned away and redistribute it - the true Socialists of Aztlan and their pets. They are the radical anti-Semites I was speaking of and their connected to every other "Hispanic rights" group that exists. And there's a lot of them.

Anyone who looks over an immigration thread on FR and argues that there is NOT a evidence of a strong undercurrent of hateful, racist, xenophobic bile against hispanics themselves has simply lost his f--king mind. I have seen people arguing that we should shoot border crossers on sight, laughing about 23 year old mexican peasants who fell under a train and lost her legs, sneering at people who died of thirst and exposure attempting to jump the border, laughing that their bodies should remain out there because "the coyotes and vultures need food, too" and numerous, numerous other examples of stuff like that. I haven't bothered to catalogue them, but if you have not seen them, then you never check the immigrant issues threads.

The 'socialists of Aztlan' are simply one more gift to us from the land of fruits and nuts (CA). There are fewer socialists per capita among latinos than among rich educated whites. Breathlessly waving around some posts from MECHA is tantamount to pointing to THE NATION as evidence that white America is socialist. Fringe leftoids are in every people group. I fear them far less than those on the "right" who would attempt to close our borders and extirpate the vision a free and open society. Ronald Reagan is one of my heroes in this respect ""Our trade policy rests firmly on the foundation of free and open markets. I recognize ... the inescapable conclusion that all of history has taught: The freer the flow of world trade, the stronger the tides of human progress and peace among nations." He signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, and more immigrants entered the United States legally under President Reagan's watch than under any previous U.S. president since Teddy Roosevelt. My vision of America with regards to immigrants coming here is best summed up in Reagan's farewell address January 1989, Reagan wove free trade and immigration into his vision of a free society: "I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get here." (emphasis mine)

I want America to be a place in which the good aspects of all cultures are allowed to freely flourish, not a place where we snatch up our skirts in fear and dismay that "they" will corrupt us. The latter is a worldview of a culture in decline.