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Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?
none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

Posted on 05/29/2005 3:58:59 PM PDT by Para-Ord.45

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To: RedTail
Sorry Clyde, but that's not the case. Deists don't believe in organized religion. They don't believe in holy doctrine such as the Bible. They don't believe there is an afterlife.

Not true. They simply do not believe in revealed religion. However one of the tenants of Deism is that God's benevolence is self-evident. Therefore whatever happens after death, while unknown, cannot be bad.

61 posted on 05/29/2005 4:43:37 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: whershey
It's very easy to defame the dead. When the righteous dead are defamed, great anger in the eternal realm is stirred up.

The "writer" of this piece is to scholarship what Bill Clinton is to monogamy.
62 posted on 05/29/2005 4:44:43 PM PDT by Red Sea Swimmer (Tisha5765Bav)
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To: JOE43270

I drink, too :-). I just didn't, offhand, know anything about Madison that would explain unorthodox religious view. I assume he was Church of England.

63 posted on 05/29/2005 4:45:32 PM PDT by Tax-chick (I'm a shallow, demagoguic sectarian because it's easier than working for a living.)
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To: latina4dubya
True. Jefferson actually wrote it but the Frankin was on the committee with Sherman, Adams, Livingston and Franklin.

Did I miss anybody? :-}

64 posted on 05/29/2005 4:46:11 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: clyde asbury

ANd most modern Americans who spout that crap don't understand Deism -and do not know American History.

65 posted on 05/29/2005 4:46:41 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: Mark Felton
"In Virginia Jefferson attended Bruton Parish Church (Episcopalian) in Williamsburg."

I think you have to be careful with this. My understanding is that he was required by law to attend. (which does not mean that he would not have attended by choice, but just that he had no choice)


66 posted on 05/29/2005 4:47:11 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: clyde asbury
It's much closer to my beliefs than traditional Christianity, too, although I haven't joined the Deists in any way other than in thought.
God as the watchmaker, rather than the vindictive God of the Old Testament

Spoken like a true Deist. Many people believe themselves to be Christian, when in reality they are Deist.
67 posted on 05/29/2005 4:48:25 PM PDT by mugs99
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To: Para-Ord.45
Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

All of those quotes are taken out of context.

As for the overall context and meaning, well, you've got a lot of reading to do. :)

68 posted on 05/29/2005 4:48:26 PM PDT by DumpsterDiver
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To: Para-Ord.45

It's quite a leap to read these quotes and come to a conclusion that they somehow 'hated' God.

I don't see how these quotes suggest a hatred for God.

69 posted on 05/29/2005 4:49:13 PM PDT by The Las Vegas Hoodlum
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To: Para-Ord.45

Why would an atheist throw those quotes at you? Neither Jefferson, Adams, Franklin or any of the others denied the existance of God. Even to hate God presupposes that there is a God to hate. Your atheist friend should find no words of comfort in the writings of those Founding Fathers. In fact, they make his arguments look rather silly.

70 posted on 05/29/2005 4:50:18 PM PDT by Russ
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To: RedTail
Deists don't believe in organized religion.

OK, I said up top that I know nothing about Deism. I can speak only for myself, but I don't see why a 'God is a watchmaker' Deist would have trouble attending a Christian church.

A deist is a very tolerant atheist, seems to me.
71 posted on 05/29/2005 4:50:41 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: anniegetyourgun

annie --problem is Jeffeson produced his wee little book --
as a means of introducing Christianity to the American Indians. In reading the letters he wrote to Benjamin Rush, and Joseph Priestly , and Trumbull He had no intention of his Life and Morals of Jesus Christ be considered another
Gospel.He did question the doctrine of the Trinity-- but
according to a Recent Barna poll too many of of our modern Preachers/Priests question the fundamental doctrines of
Christianity.(like the virgin birth, the resurection etc.)

72 posted on 05/29/2005 4:52:03 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: clyde asbury

That simply isn't true, of the founding fathers that signed the declaration only a handful were possibly deists. That is bad history they teach in our public schools. The "common man" that went to war for our freedoms were God fearing men, Christians.

73 posted on 05/29/2005 4:53:03 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: mugs99
Spoken like a true Deist.

And I didn't even know it. Thanks, mugs. :)

Maybe there's hope for me yet.
74 posted on 05/29/2005 4:53:36 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: jwalsh07
Do you know the difference between laws and constitutional rights?

The Constitution IS the supreme law of the USA.

75 posted on 05/29/2005 4:55:07 PM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
That is bad history they teach in our public schools.

No kidding. I didn't learn anything about the Founding Fathers there.
76 posted on 05/29/2005 4:55:59 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: Para-Ord.45
Quotes can be tricky things.

In John Adam's 1774 commentary, Novanglus: A history of the Dispute with America, from its Origin, in 1754, to the Present Time. In tit Adams admonished the clergy to speak out regarding public error, saying:

    "It is the duty of the clergy to accommodate their discourses to the times, to preach against such sins as are most prevalent, and recommend such virtues as are most wanted. For example, if exorbitant ambition and venality are predominant, ought they not to warn their hearers against those vices? If public spirit is much wanted, should they not inculcate this great virtue? If the rights and duties of Christian magistrates and subjects are disputed, should they not explain them, show their nature, ends, limitations, and restrictions, how much soever it may move the gall of Massachusetts."

On July 1, 1776 speaking before the Continental Congress John Adams said:

    "Before God, I believe the hour has come. My judgment approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope in this life, I am now ready here to stake upon it. and I leave off and I began, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now, and Independence for ever!"

On June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, John Adams wrote:

    "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence,  were the only Principles inn which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite... And what were these general Principle? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.
    Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

In a letter dated Nov. 4, 1816, John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson:

    "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

On October 7, 1818, John Adams wrote, telling Thomas Jefferson of his wife's impending death:

    "Now,  sir, for my grief's! The dear partner of my life for 54 years as a wife and for many more as a lover, now lies in extremis, forbidden to speak or to be  spoken to... If human life is a bubble, no matter how soon it breaks, if it is, as I firmly believe, an immortal existence, we ought patiently wait the instruction of the great Teacher.
    I am, Sir, your deeply afflicted friend,
                                                    John Adams"


That will have to do for now since I don't feel like typing out a bunch of Jefferson and Franklin too. Hope it helps some.

77 posted on 05/29/2005 4:56:15 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Para-Ord.45
These don't show that the founding father's hated god. As a Christian anarcho-conservative technocrat, I agree with almost all of those quotes given more context and taking into account the time period they were said.

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

This can be read two different ways. One way is that he's not even talking about religion or Christianity. Even if it's the other way, who cares? Religion has been abused.

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

I see this as an indictment of the pagan and extra biblical human traditions introduced into Christianity.

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

See above. Blame Rome.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

Probably true back then. Too political and not enough living biblically.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

Nothing to dispute here considering this is how most Christians act. All Christians should learn logic, rhetoric, and spend some time on Apologetics.

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

This sentence doesn't translate well to modern English. It sounds like an endorsement of praise and worship.

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

This is a good criticism which I agree with. Faith without works is dead. Works is an indication of your faith and not a means towards salvation.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

I agree with this. The worst thing ever for Christianity was for Constantine to make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire. Not only did it bring in paganism but then it became a political entity which later allowed it to persecute others.

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

Well I'm an anarchist so I fully support getting rid of the civil power and letting Christians take care of themselves and building a borderless world kingdom on Earth. If you think about this country though, it's been the civil power that's had to turn to the religious power time and time again.

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Completely correct statement.

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

Stupid for Jesus is still stupid. There logical ways of defending Christianity.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

For the millionth freaking time, this has to do with establishing a national compulsory religion.

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

This statement is pro-religion in the public life. Just think, it doesn't hurt anyone else to say that there is a god.

" man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

Nothing wrong with this.
78 posted on 05/29/2005 4:56:37 PM PDT by bahblahbah
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To: clyde asbury

Jefferson's main criticism of Christianity was of the "tricks" he believed had been played with the gospels over the centuries.

On this point, I believe he was right.

Tricks?? Jefferson went through many stages in life and he also wrote extensively about his thoughts. I must ask how a person could believe in Jesus as Messiah and really believe that the gospels have been "fixed". If you do not believe the 4 gospels you might as well though out the bible in it's entirety.

79 posted on 05/29/2005 4:56:47 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: Hugin

The very notion of a Deist Church defeats the whole purpose of Deism itself. I think that's straight out of

80 posted on 05/29/2005 4:57:37 PM PDT by RedTail
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