Putin criticizes Allies for Dresden bombing

MSNBC ^ | May 5, 2005

[Paul_Denton]

We had to eliminate Germany's industrial capabilities.

Eliminating the enemy industrial capacity is a basic tactic in any war. Sending millions to the Gulag like Stalin did is what we call mass murder. Like I said Putin is a hypocrite.

[familyop]

"As for the purpose of incendiary devices, I'm going to pull another assumption out of eevil Hellywood and say that I'm pretty sure they're used for blowing stuff up."

Yes, statements like that show a lack of competence for arguments about military history. Incendiary devices are for melting military equipment. I've used them.

[familyop]

"Your fanatical ranting is supporting websites like Vanguard News Network: racist forums for all the most ignorant of humanity to gather and talk about how their lives have been ruined by "non-Whites". You're clearly just like them because you're from America, and you are a xenophobe. And I gauge from your name that you place importance on the family. Making you just like them. Clearly."

And your leftist, hate-America attitude was obvious enough before that comment, when you were only helping your associate, PzGr43, at promoting the anti-American, neo-Nazi Dresden canard.

[asgromo]

Talk about a hypocrite. Condamns civilians killed by our bombs while Stalin intentionally murdered MILLIONS of his own people.

Okay, I'm bored so I'm going to go over this step by step.

Hypocrisy is the "practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness". Now, we assume that the subject "one" implies a single human being. In Paul_Denton's statement (great game, by the way, if you're referring to that, Denton) he calls somebody a hypocrite. Since he's responding to the post of this thread that actually makes up a news entry, I assume he is speaking of one "Vladimir Putin", that is, the current President of Russia. Let's connect the dots- Paul_Denton is calling Putin a hypocrite. But why?

Luckily, Denton goes on to answer that question. Denton states in the next sentence that Putin is a hypocrite for condemning our bombs, even though Stalin intentionally murdered millions of his own people.

This is where, for me, it gets fuzzy. We've already made it clear that the definition of hypocrisy implies a single person. But if I'm to agree with common knowledge, Stalin and Putin are two different people! This is what leads me to believe that Paul_Denton is not using the word "hypocrite" correctly. Perhaps he could refer to actual actions that Putin could be considered responsible for, such as the gassing of a theatre full of hostages in an attempt to end a terrorist threat, that brought upon the deaths of 117 innocent lives. Or something.

Anyway, unless there is some incredible phenomenon of genetic memory in Russians, in which case Putin would have to be a descendent of Stalin, and even then blaming him for Stalin's actions could be disputable, I don't see how Denton's statement stands up to much analysis. =/

[PzGr43]

>So you maintain that it was widely known that the Soviets >would kill these people when repatriated?
>

You think Stalin was a boy-scout leader or something ?

That's like saying "So you maintain it was widely known that Hitler would kill Jews?" - In the West, it's an Act of Faith that he would, and anyone who does not claim this kind of presience in pre33 individuals is a holocaust-denier. So miraculously, no-one realised by 1945 that Stalin was a genocidal maniac, but everyone realized in 1918 that Hitler was ?

>Do you have a >source for that, or do you expect us to >just >unquestioningly buy that?

Well you bought the idea that the Allies were squeaky-clean without any documentation, why not this ?

The entire sorry chapter was documented in

"The Last Secret" by Nicholas Bethell

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/repatriate.html

[Loud Mime]

There will come a time that we're going to have to deal with Putin on not-so-friendly terms.

A few officers bearing my last (very Polish) name were executed in the Katyn Forest Massacre. I'm going to research the information next month when I visit some relatives.

[PzGr43]

>One must not forget the logistical support that >the "civilian population" provided by working at the >German Defense factories,
>

This is just the "So it's OK to kill civilians" argument.

Ward-Churchill (How I hate having to write that name) plays that card on 9-11

This kind of justification works well for other, such as Oradour, Lidice. 'Don't forget the logistical support the "civilian population [in that grid-square]" ' gave the partisans. So now it's OK to slaughter a grid-square of civilians.

I'm happy with that if you're happy with that.

[An.American.Expatriate]

This will play very well in Germany. Imagine that, the "ex"-communist Putin is actually supporting statements made by the NPD (a kind of "nazi" party) in Germany! At the time, the statements of the NPD were roundly denounced by the German "elite", including Schröder and his minions. I wonder when they will begin denouncing Putin's statement?

[An.American.Expatriate]

Hitler wasn't elected, he was appointed by Paul von Hindenburg.

not entirely correct. Hitler's NSDAP Party was legally elected into Parlament in sufficient numbers that they were able to form a coalition.

Hitler used certain "dangers" of the time to convince von Hindenburg (and the Parlament) to grant him exclusive power for a limited time. Of course, once he had the exclusive power - he alone was able to extend the "limits" as he saw fit.

Fact remains - the NSDAP was duly elected by the people in a free and fair election. It was the political system of the time which allowed Hitler to take advantage of loopholes and thus become a Dictator.

[Caipirabob]

Vlad, next time you take your comedy routine on the road, try one of these.

[Paul_Denton]

Yes I am referring to the Denton of the game Deus Ex. Just look at my profile. Anyway, hypocrite, hypocritical, whatever. Putin whines about the bombing raids over Dresden when in fact that Stalin was responsible for far more deaths. Hypocritical, double standard, whatever you want to call it. He has no right to lecture us about civilian deaths when Stalin and his KGB pals murdered far more people than anyone and is only equal to Mao.

[Paul_Denton]

Anyway, unless there is some incredible phenomenon of genetic memory in Russians, in which case Putin would have to be a descendent of Stalin, and even then blaming him for Stalin's actions could be disputable, I don't see how Denton's statement stands up to much analysis. =/

Did I say I was blaming putin for stalins atrocities. NO. So don't act like I did.

[Paul_Denton]

In any case Putin is no friend of the west, but that's a nother subject entirly.

[PzGr43]

>
>PzGr43 wrote:
>" The USAAF bombed rail yards in Dresden the day after
>the night of the firestorm, but they made up for not
>being in on the slaughter of civilians by ordering
>their fighter-bombers to strafe the fleeing refugees."
>
>We don't need the neo-Nazi and communist lies about
>Dresden. We are aware that the anti-American Dresden
>canards are only perpetuated by neo-Nazis and
>communists. The following are rebuttals of the
>neo-Nazi lies. Another rebuttal follows.
>
>"Dresden strafing myth is shot down"
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/251208/posts


Yeah thanks I read it at the time and found it laughable.

From crossing into Germany and some time before,
Allied Jabos strafed their way across Europe, shooting
anything which moved including civilians. The Germans did
not write the history of the war and the dead don't tell
but there are enough survivors to tell the few who wish
to listen.

I like the author's contention that somehow, no Jabos attacked
in the vicinity of Dresden that day, as if it made up
for the whole rest of the war.

The Allied air losses were higher from ground fire than from
air-to-air. After they had finished bomber escort as far
as the coast, a popular past-time was returning to strafe
in the Nederlands and Germany.

Oh great. So no Mosquitos attacked the suburbs of Dresden
that day. That makes it all right then.


>Herr Schnatz quotes a Dresden woman as saying: "The
>planes circled around the tree tops. The pilots
>looked out of their cockpits and aimed their
>machine-guns at us." Herr Schnatz says in the
>book, Tiefflieger über Dresden? (Low flying
>aircraft over Dresden?) published by Boehlau
>, Cologne, that hundreds of similar accounts are untrue.

Eyewitness accounts of this nature are always dodgy. The US air safety
board has found that eyewitness nearly always report
flames coming from plummeting aircraft, to the point
where they have to discount them.

Eyewitness are usually a bit more sure about being
shot-at or seeing people killed.


>A similar line of argument is pursued against a daytime
>Mustang attack on civilians by the Americans. Again
>limited fuel supply and difficult weather conditions
>made it highly improbable. The Americans were under
>explicit orders not to carry out lowlevel attacks
>even on strategic targets.
>

Here's some explicit orders 'not to carry out low level attacks
even on strategic targets' - and we all know how good pilots
are at obeying orders not to strafe things on the ground.


"It's a very different war at 50 feet off the ground; you see
everything, especially in winter, when cars and trucks and people
are easily spotted against a blanket of snow. Coming in so low, my
eyes once met with the driver of a German staff car. I was coming
straight at him; one quick burst and that car disintegrated, four
bodies tossed out on the icy road like rag dolls. Another time, I
spotted a five- or six-truck German troop convoy; by the time I
swooped down on them, the troops had jumped out and were
hunkered down in a roadside ditch. I opened up with my six
fifty-caliber machine guns and watched those sparkling butterflies
dance right up the line in that ditch. Before leaving, I hit their
trucks. It was the first time I ever strafed troops, and I was
surprised at how quick and easy it was to take out an entire
battalion. Enemy troops are fair game: A driver in a
jeep - zap him. A soldier running through the snow - zap him. But
we weren't always scrupulous about our target
Atrocities were committed by both sides. That fall our fighter group
received orders from the Eighth Air Force to stage a maximum effort.
Our seventy-five Mustangs were assigned an area of fifty miles by
fifty miles inside Germany and ordered to strafe anything that moved.
The objective was to demoralize the German population. Noboby
asked our opinion about whether we were actually demoralizing the
survivors or maybe enraging them to stage their own maximum effort
in behalf of the Nazi war effort. We weren't asked how we felt zapping
people. It was a miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time
and did it. If it occurred to anyone to refuse to participate (nobody
refused, I recall) that person would have probably been court-martialed.
I remember sitting next to Bochkay at a briefing and whispered to him:
"If we're gonna do things like this, we sure as hell better make sure
we're on the winning side." That's still my view."


General Chuck Yeager "Yeager - An Autobiography" Bantam Books 1985 page 62

[PzGr43]

>And your leftist, hate-America attitude was obvious enough >before that comment, when you were only helping your >associate, PzGr43, at promoting the anti-American, neo->Nazi Dresden canard.
>

"anti-American, neo-Nazi Dresden canard"

Read the script. It is the RAF who are in the dock for this one. The USAAF might just get off. Harris was the one who enjoyed murder-by-firestorm. WSC and Portal showed few, if any, signs of agreeing with the policy.

[asgromo]

So to prove that I accused the USA of a war crime you decide to quote random passages from my earlier posts. This would make sense if the passages actually accused the USA of a war crime. I never said I believed the Dresden bombing was criminal. I do believe it was completely immoral. But criminal? At the time? No idea. Were ancient Mongol raids "criminal"?

Ohh, so I'm a Nazi because I supposedly defend them. Look who thinks he's "clever Dan". So yeah, I'm still not going to back down because you're associating me with Nazis, horrifically negative connotation as it may be... That's about the oldest trick in the book. =/

Yes, statements like that show a lack of competence for arguments about military history. Incendiary devices are for melting military equipment. I've used them.

Okay, you're going to make me look up everything, aren't you? Anyway, no. An incendiary device is a very general category. If you bother to look it up, though, you'll see that "incendiary device" always seems to refer to "firebombs." This Geneva convention refers to "incendiary weapon" as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target." But no, you're talking about incendiary "devices", right? Whatever. I don't know what you're ever talking about. You may just want to stick with calling people Nazis.

And your leftist, hate-America attitude was obvious enough before that comment, when you were only helping your associate, PzGr43, at promoting the anti-American, neo-Nazi Dresden canard.

And you're the human equivalent of my ears ringing. Plz stop saying "canard" and plz stop saying completely unrelated things about people and plz learn the meaning of "drivel" so you can avoid it.

[asgromo]

Yes I am referring to the Denton of the game Deus Ex. Just look at my profile. Anyway, hypocrite, hypocritical, whatever. Putin whines about the bombing raids over Dresden when in fact that Stalin was responsible for far more deaths. Hypocritical, double standard, whatever you want to call it. He has no right to lecture us about civilian deaths when Stalin and his KGB pals murdered far more people than anyone and is only equal to Mao.

I looked at your profile and found your take on Deus Ex insulting (though I do agree that the gameplay in Invisible War was oversimplified). Anyway, you still don't understand that Putin had no political position sixty years ago because he wasn't born for another ten years. I don't see why he can't dispute American actions. It's not a double standard because he had nothing to do with Stalin's actions. It's not hypocrisy because he had nothing to do with Stalin's actions. These are very very fundamental concepts of language and logic that we're dealing with here. I won't even bother to go into how many people Stalin killed- it doesn't matter because Stalin has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Did I say I was blaming putin for stalins atrocities. NO. So don't act like I did.

I must have misunderstood you. I guess you were calling Putin a hypocrite because of the actions that Stalin was responsible for, not because Putin was to blame for Stalin's actions. Right...

In any case Putin is no friend of the west, but that's a nother subject entirly.

Clearly another subject entirely.

[Paul_Denton]

I must have misunderstood you. I guess you were calling Putin a hypocrite because of the actions that Stalin was responsible for, not because Putin was to blame for Stalin's actions. Right...

LOL and Bush was responsible for Dresden? Yeah right...

I looked at your profile and found your take on Deus Ex insulting

Considering your attitude that is not such a bad thing.

Sorry I offended your hero Putin NOT!

[Paul_Denton]

asgromo Since May 4, 2005

Yeah you can go back to the DUmp n00b.

[asgromo]

LOL and Bush was responsible for Dresden? Yeah right...

I don't know what this means.

Considering your attitude that is not such a bad thing.

Considering your responses I guess you're twelve years old.

Sorry I offended your hero Putin NOT!

Hey... Look over there! OH! Made you look. And I don't know how you get around calling Putin my hero, either. What if I just assumed what your heroes were and made vague attempts to offend them? Hey, Barney the Dinosaur is a RETARD. And Santa Claus never existed! HA!

asgromo Since May 4, 2005 Yeah you can go back to the DUmp n00b.

Paul_Denton Since Dec 5, 2004

Wait, wtf do I care?