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New arena for birth-control battle
Star Tribune ^ | May 3, 2005 | Rene Sanchez

Posted on 05/03/2005 5:33:17 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

Rebecca Polzin walked into a drugstore in Glencoe, Minn., last month to fill a prescription for birth control. A routine request. Or so she thought.

Minutes later, Polzin left furious and empty-handed. She said the pharmacist on duty refused to help her. "She kept repeating the same line: 'I won't fill it for moral reasons,' " Polzin said.

Earlier this year, Adriane Gilbert called a pharmacy in Richfield to ask if her birth-control prescription was ready. She said the person who answered told her to go elsewhere because he was opposed to contraception. "I was shocked," Gilbert said. "I had no idea what to do."

The two women have become part of an emotional debate emerging across the country: Should a pharmacist's moral views trump a woman's reproductive rights?

No one knows how many pharmacists in Minnesota or nationwide are declining to fill contraceptive prescriptions. But both sides in the debate say they are hearing more reports of such incidents -- and they predict that conflicts at drugstore counters are bound to increase.

"Five years ago, we didn't have evidence of this, and we would have been dumbfounded to see it," said Sarah Stoesz, president of Planned Parenthood of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota. "We're not dumbfounded now. We're very concerned about what's happening."

But M. Casey Mattox of the Center for Law and Religious Freedom said it is far more disturbing to see pharmacists under fire for their religious beliefs than it is to have women inconvenienced by taking their prescription to another drugstore. He also said that laws have long shielded doctors opposed to abortion from having to take part in the procedure.

"The principle here is precisely the same," Mattox said.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: conscienceclause; pharmacy
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"The job of the pharmacist is to fill prescriptions. If she doesn't do her job and is fired for it there would be no "show" just another fired employee. She wouldn't stand a chance in court".

I think your screen name says it all. "Justshutupandtake it". Just allow the State to compel you to assist a woman in her decision to kill her baby.

Pharmacy is a profession. The Pharmacist as a Health Professional has an obligation to fill prescriptions safely and in a knowledgeable manner. he has NO obligation to fill every prescription. A doctor has NO obligation to accept a patient, or to provide any particular medical care that the patient wants. Neither the Pharmacist or the Doctor is a servant, or a slave. If you don't like their decisions, go elsewhere; they have a right to apply their moral judgments to their practice, and they are not even obligated to discuss the matter with you except perhaps to point out they have a moral problem with that particular service. The patient can choose to go elsewhere.

There is another issue, however, and that is the issue that may arise between a Pharmacist and an employer who differ in this moral judgment. Some employers may choose to terminate a Pharmacist who refuses to help kill a baby; I doubt that most employers would choose to open that can of worms. I believe most employers would accept that they cannot compel someone to violate a fundamental moral belief, and also not want to lose an otherwise well performing Pharmacist. In the case where the employer chooses to push it, however, I think that various Right to Life organizations would love the opportunity for a test case, and I wonder if a given Pharmacy would want to invest so much financially in an effort to fight the issue.
181 posted on 05/03/2005 11:03:49 AM PDT by Bushforlife (I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: kx9088
So, nature is ok for one instance but in the other if you have to go artificial it's ok? Got hypocrisy?

I'm not sure what you think "hypocrisy" means. We've got a consistent philosophy.

I was expecting a line like "if that's the way your were born then that was God's plan for you" type of statement.

Maybe when you think about our consistent philosophy it will all make sense.

Because obviously you don't want to stop God's natural process when it comes to birth control, so why would it be ok to interfere in the other case?

When someone cuts their arm and it bleeds all over the place, we don't let it go cause that is "natural." No, we sew it up and stop the bleeding.

If someone is born with asthma, we don't say "tough luck, you were born with crappy lungs." No, we adminster medicine.

We have this idea, this consistent philosophy about how the body is supposed to work. When it malfunctions, we fix it, to the best of our ability. When it is working normally, we leave it alone.

Can you apply these principles and see how they cause my answers?

Fertility is not a disease that requires medication to counteract it. So trying to control conception by chemical means is not "medicine." It is not curing a malfunction of the body.

On the other hand, if a woman is having difficulty getting or staying pregnant because of some malfunction, then it is perfectly licit to give her hormones or medicines to help her body work the way it is supposed to.

See how it all makes sense?

SD

182 posted on 05/03/2005 11:04:19 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: ga medic

The birth control pill prevents ovulation. There is no conception because there is no ovulation. The birth control pill is NOT abortion.

The morning after pill prevents a fertilized egg from implanting. It destroys a new life, AFTER conception. It, like RU486, is an agent of abortion.


183 posted on 05/03/2005 11:17:57 AM PDT by Bushforlife (I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: SoothingDave

I understand your point.

It's ok to alter nature when it helps to save lives, but it's not ok to alter nature to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Notice I said "prevent", not "end".

What would you say in the case of my wife and I, where she needs birth control pills to regulate her cycle and lessen the effects of PCOS?


184 posted on 05/03/2005 11:19:20 AM PDT by kx9088
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To: kx9088

Start with Genesis and God's command to 'be fruitful.' Then go to the 10 Commandments which regulate sexual behavior. Finally go to Onan's story, which demonstrates that God does not approve of 'birth control' which is artificial, as it was in the case of Onan. I don't think we want to get into details here.

The understanding of the prohibition is enhanced with an understanding of nature. As JPII pointed out, the procreative and unitive aspects of intercourse are inseparable. If we understand Genesis' "...He saw that it was good..." correctly, we also understand that the way we are assembled is precisely the way God wanted it.

Re-arranging the assembly, chemically or mechanically, denies the truth of the OEM, thus lacks integrity.


185 posted on 05/03/2005 11:22:08 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: kx9088

The difference you articulate is exactly correct--and is shown by your language.

"Prevent" is not the same as "maintain." The first is negative, the second is positive.

Your instinct is dead-on.


186 posted on 05/03/2005 11:24:15 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: kx9088
It's ok to alter nature when it helps to save lives, but it's not ok to alter nature to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

That's basically it. There's nothing wrong with a normal healthy female's body which require monkeying around with her hormones.

What would you say in the case of my wife and I, where she needs birth control pills to regulate her cycle and lessen the effects of PCOS?

I'm not sure what PCOS is, If there are legitimate medical reasons for taking the medication, then it is truly medication. There is nothing wrong with that. It probably would not be a bad idea to refrain during the fertile period to ensure that no possible eggs are fertilized and then lost.

SD

187 posted on 05/03/2005 11:31:09 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: doc30
If these pharmacists are morally opposed to filling a perscription, as per a physician's orders, they need to find a different line of work. It is not their place to hold moral judgement over what a specific medication does.

IF the patient is morally oposed to going to another pharmacy they won't get it filled. Screw the physician and his orders - they can take them elsewhere.

188 posted on 05/03/2005 11:31:58 AM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Fanatics should not be working as pharmacists when they believe they can impose their "morality" on others.

Why not? You obviously expect to impose your "morality" on them.

I am not catholic and I don't agree with catholics on many things. But labeling them as "fanatics" is the sort of wild-eyed extremism that reveals you to be far more fanatical than they are.

189 posted on 05/03/2005 11:32:23 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: ninenot

I'm not sure I follow you.


190 posted on 05/03/2005 11:32:36 AM PDT by kx9088
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To: SoothingDave

http://www.pcosupport.org/medical/whatis.php

Our first child came before my wife found out that she had this, so he was 100% natural. However, our second child needed the help of fertility drugs. This is when she found out about the PCOS.

Infertility + birth control pills = only intervention from the supreme being himself is how she would get pregnant.

By PCOS, the egg never leaves the ovary due to the cysts.


191 posted on 05/03/2005 11:42:32 AM PDT by kx9088
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To: kx9088
It's ok to alter nature when it helps to save lives, but it's not ok to alter nature to prevent unwanted pregnancies

"Save...lives" is a POSITIVE phrasing and your instinctive use of the term contrasts with "prevent...pregnancies," a negative phrasing.

Of course, preservation of life is a positive--foiling the creation of life is a negative.

Your instinctual use of the language is precisely correct.

192 posted on 05/03/2005 11:42:33 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: kx9088
Our first child came before my wife found out that she had this, so he was 100% natural. However, our second child needed the help of fertility drugs. This is when she found out about the PCOS.

Polycystic ovaries. OK. I'd never seen it abbreviated.

What kind of drugs were used to help you get pregnant? Clomid?

I'm certainly not going to condemn someone for trying to get their body to function properly. It's when people hyper stimulate, do in vitro, implant multiples and then selectively reduce them that we are into the realm of going above and beyond nature's normal function.

193 posted on 05/03/2005 11:49:42 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Bushforlife

"A person does not check her moral beliefs at the door just because someone finances their education. That's called "selling out"."

Then I suppose you'd be the first person to support male muslim doctors who might refuse to treat women bcse it violates their religious beliefs? And you'll be the first person to send your best wishes to the first muslim on-call surgeon who asserts he had a moral obligation to refuse surgery to that female accident victim who died at 3 am while they scrambled to find someone else to operate? His religious obligation not to look upon a naked woman would trump her need to not be dead. Any other position would be "selling out" his faith right? That is, afterall, the logical extension of your position.

PS - I don't know what's more obscene: your refusal to provide needed treatment to rape victims or the pride you seem to take in it.


194 posted on 05/03/2005 11:50:58 AM PDT by MonaMars
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
A business should operate according to whatever policies it chooses

All businesses operate with some form of government interference. It's called regulation. Differnet businesses operate under different levels of regulation and liscencing. Doctors and pharmacists must be liscenced to practice in their respective states. If the regulations state how a prescription is to be filled, the pharmacist must follow the regulations or risk losing their liscence. Based on your arguement, that businesses should be free from government interference means that you are advocating that doctors and pharmacists do not need to meet any requirements to practice their profession. They do not need to go to school. They do not need to pass state liscencing exams in order to prove they are competent. You are technically advocating anarchy in the profesisonal realm where anyone can hagn up a shingle and do business. That would be a very scarey place to live.

195 posted on 05/03/2005 11:52:32 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: SoothingDave

Follistim.

Clomid, according to her doctor, would have a greater chance of releasing more than 1 or 2 eggs. As it was the Follistim also had the chance of releasing multiple eggs too. If there would've been more than one fertizilized we would've had the chance to remove the number that we chose.

If it would've happened that way, we would've reduced it to just 1 for medical reasons.

If this didn't work, the next step would've been In Vitro.


196 posted on 05/03/2005 11:58:48 AM PDT by kx9088
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To: Bushforlife

This is not what I have been told and I am not sure it is accurate. Based upon previous discussion on this thread it seems that: the birth control pill does prevent ovulation in most cases. However, in some cases, (3-5% per another poster on this thread) the egg is released and fertilized. The fertilized egg cannot attach to the uterus because of the birth control pill, which is an early abortion. Same for the morning after pill. It works to prevent ovulation as well, but like the birth control pill it can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching. I will try to find some more scientific evidence and I will post it but this seems to be the consensus so far.


197 posted on 05/03/2005 11:59:13 AM PDT by ga medic
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To: nickcarraway

Controlled substances have a high level of government scrutiny and the pharmacist can get in big trouble with the DEA if he or she sells narcotics to someone they suspect to be an addict. Ask Jeb Bush's daughter. That's how she was busted - by an observant pharmacist that saw the prescription fraud.


198 posted on 05/03/2005 11:59:24 AM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: kx9088
If it would've happened that way, we would've reduced it to just 1 for medical reasons.

I would never have put myself in that position.

SD

199 posted on 05/03/2005 12:08:31 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

It's not something that we wanted to do because it would've increased the chances that you would lose the ones that you left there.

Luckily we didn't have to make that choice.


200 posted on 05/03/2005 12:15:43 PM PDT by kx9088
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