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To: elkclan
Rather than taking a religious stance, I rather support the freedoms and liberties that Western society has

I have had this debate with a FRiend here and I do understand your position. I agree with you more than you think.

In what ways are Christians attempting to deny you free speech,freedom Not to worship etc?

As a Christian I have NO problem with any of the things you mentioned in point #2 of your post.

As for Islam you said; we've only seen some of this potential danger realized - there's a lot more scary potential left untapped.

So I'm trying to understand your position? If we have a known enemy of this Country, we are to "tolerate" it, because its citizens don't want to lose their own civil liberties? I may have completely misunderstood what you were saying, and if so I apologize.

One thing I do know...if Islam accomplishes what it has set out to do, this Country will become a dhimmi Nation, or worse, and we won't have to worry about civil liberties... we won't have any liberties. That, is what I want to prevent.

40 posted on 04/17/2005 6:21:39 AM PDT by jan in Colorado (Please pray for Texas Cowboy and nw_arizona_granny!)
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To: jan in Colorado

On the point of an Islamic society - you bet, I agree - there would be few civil liberties left. But we can look back in time to when Christians were killing each other in Europe over relatively small differences in theology, never mind non-believers like myself. You might say we could never go back, but I believe that we have to stay constantly vigilant, lest we do.

I grew up in a small town in the Bible Belt and there was a lot of pressure on 'free speech'. I've certainly felt pressure to keep my mouth shut for over evolution, abortion and the fact that I don't believe in God. There was constant and overwhelming societal pressure to go to church - though fair enough I wasn't dragged there (except by my mother).

More broadly, there are movements by so-called Christians in several state legistlatures against what I would call free speech and academic freedom (though these Bills are cleverly named things that seem to imply they support free speech) because they're trying to promote the teaching of "intelligent design" at University level. Others are encouraging pharmacists to deny people legal prescriptions, abortion clinic bombings, etc. etc, all based on their "Christian" morality. And what happens if you object to prayer in a public place...?

I don't think that these things are being promoted by people I would call good Christians. I was raised Christian, and there's a lot of good in Christianity - it's just not for me. What's also not for me is people moralising and legislating based on religion rather than rational discourse.

I don't live in the US anymore, but every time I visit my family I see how my country is changing, how it's becoming more militanty religious - and to me it's worrying. It's like building a fundamentalist society where your every act is governed by someone else's view of religion.

I'm fairly tolerant, I don't mind if someone else lives that way, but I don't want them to tell ME what to do based on THEIR holy writings. Nor do I feel I should have to go too far out of my way to accommodate someone else's religious sensitivities (but I'm a big believer in being polite!) Currently, we all have to tread carefully in the UK (where I live) not to offend Islamic sensitivities, in the US it's Christian sensitivities. If you don't, then you're called anti-Christian, Islamaphobic, etc.

Re. being anti-Islam, I wouldn't want to stop anyone from practicing Islam -I believe people should be free to practice their religion - in their private domain (home, church, etc.) even if I think it is a religion with little redeeming value. Because I believe our Western values of liberty are right and include a set of freedoms, including freedom to worship.

The threat to our country- and our Western values isn't from all Muslims or all people raised Muslim, but from fundamentalist Muslims who seek both peaceful and legal means and violence to force their way of life on others. But if to counter their ways, we restrict our own liberties, THEY have won. If people become more fundamentalist in their Christianity to counter this and ALSO try to alter others' behavior accordingly - I think we all lose. I think we fight fundamentalism and bad religion by being clear, rational, secular and tolerant and we fight the violent promotion of bad religion with effective, well-funded and well thought-out and fair law enforcement.


42 posted on 04/17/2005 10:50:45 AM PDT by elkclan
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