On the point of an Islamic society - you bet, I agree - there would be few civil liberties left. But we can look back in time to when Christians were killing each other in Europe over relatively small differences in theology, never mind non-believers like myself. You might say we could never go back, but I believe that we have to stay constantly vigilant, lest we do.
I grew up in a small town in the Bible Belt and there was a lot of pressure on 'free speech'. I've certainly felt pressure to keep my mouth shut for over evolution, abortion and the fact that I don't believe in God. There was constant and overwhelming societal pressure to go to church - though fair enough I wasn't dragged there (except by my mother).
More broadly, there are movements by so-called Christians in several state legistlatures against what I would call free speech and academic freedom (though these Bills are cleverly named things that seem to imply they support free speech) because they're trying to promote the teaching of "intelligent design" at University level. Others are encouraging pharmacists to deny people legal prescriptions, abortion clinic bombings, etc. etc, all based on their "Christian" morality. And what happens if you object to prayer in a public place...?
I don't think that these things are being promoted by people I would call good Christians. I was raised Christian, and there's a lot of good in Christianity - it's just not for me. What's also not for me is people moralising and legislating based on religion rather than rational discourse.
I don't live in the US anymore, but every time I visit my family I see how my country is changing, how it's becoming more militanty religious - and to me it's worrying. It's like building a fundamentalist society where your every act is governed by someone else's view of religion.
I'm fairly tolerant, I don't mind if someone else lives that way, but I don't want them to tell ME what to do based on THEIR holy writings. Nor do I feel I should have to go too far out of my way to accommodate someone else's religious sensitivities (but I'm a big believer in being polite!) Currently, we all have to tread carefully in the UK (where I live) not to offend Islamic sensitivities, in the US it's Christian sensitivities. If you don't, then you're called anti-Christian, Islamaphobic, etc.
Re. being anti-Islam, I wouldn't want to stop anyone from practicing Islam -I believe people should be free to practice their religion - in their private domain (home, church, etc.) even if I think it is a religion with little redeeming value. Because I believe our Western values of liberty are right and include a set of freedoms, including freedom to worship.
The threat to our country- and our Western values isn't from all Muslims or all people raised Muslim, but from fundamentalist Muslims who seek both peaceful and legal means and violence to force their way of life on others. But if to counter their ways, we restrict our own liberties, THEY have won. If people become more fundamentalist in their Christianity to counter this and ALSO try to alter others' behavior accordingly - I think we all lose. I think we fight fundamentalism and bad religion by being clear, rational, secular and tolerant and we fight the violent promotion of bad religion with effective, well-funded and well thought-out and fair law enforcement.
Even though I may not agree with you on every point, I really appreciate your post and your way of presenting your case.
we can look back in time to when Christians were killing each other in Europe over relatively small differences in theology,
One BIG difference here Elkclan is they may "say" it is being done in the name of Christ, but that is NOT Christianity. Christ teaches to "love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you." No where does Jesus teach for us to hate or kill! Can the same be said of Mohammed? I think not!
I've certainly felt pressure to keep my mouth shut over evolution, abortion and the fact that I don't believe in God. There was constant and overwhelming societal pressure to go to church - though fair enough I wasn't dragged there (except by my mother)
How long ago was this? Sounds like the good 'ol days to me (sorry, I know it must not have been to you) God Bless your mother...maybe that is why, even though you aren't a believer, you are reasonable and not filled with hatred toward Christians. A lot does have to do with where you live. I was raised in Miami and no one I knew went to church, and in the liberal leaning community where I live now, very few go to church.
I wonder when you last visited this Country? Christians are the ONE group that are fair game to bash and insult. In public schools you can't even mention the name Jesus, or Merry Christmas, yet Islam is taught as "History" and students not only learn the 5 pillars, they take on Muslim names and wardrobe etc for school projects. I have a real problem with this double standard. Teach ALL the religions as History, or none of them.
As for evolution....it should be taught as a theory Not a fact! Why not teach both sides? See, I'm a right-wing conservative Christian but I'm reasonable (I prefer that word to tolerant).
I wouldn't want to stop anyone from practicing Islam -I believe people should be free to practice their religion
Pre 9/11 I would have agreed with you. I had no idea what the agenda of Islam was. Now that I know its agenda, I feel it is a threat to the Freedom we have in this country. As I said to kosta50, I don't have any legitimate,legal solutions.
Your solution:
I think we fight fundamentalism and bad religion by being clear, rational, secular and tolerant and we fight the violent promotion of bad religion with effective, well-funded and well thought-out and fair law enforcement.
This sounds good (some of it)...however...having been in law enforcement for 10 years, don't ever count on it being "well-funded, thought out or fair"! Yes, I am cynical. The Criminal Justice System in this Country is a travesty.
if to counter their ways, we restrict our own liberties, THEY have won.
I have had this discussion with someone else here on FR and I somewhat see your point. Personally, I am willing to give up some of my personal liberties for the protection of society, but I know this is a red flag and can get very complicated.