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To: tort_feasor
It would sound kinda funny if Jesus said "This is wine, which has been shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven".

I'm not sure what the issue is over transubstantiation. It's not like there is anything in the text that shows Jesus to be goofing or using an analogy. He clearly says "This is my body/blood." Not, "This is like my body/blood" or "This is a symbol of my body/blood".
1,012 posted on 04/16/2005 4:26:40 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
I'm not sure what the issue is over transubstantiation.
 
The issue is that the whole thing is weird, totally unlike anything that history and the Scriptures show us about the Passover Meal.

 
What we have today - The Lord's Supper - was, when started, the PASSOVER meal. 
A meal that had been established by God so that the Children of Israel would REMEMBER the event, for all time.
 
Exodus 12:11
   This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD's Passover.
 
 
Exodus 12:21
   Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb.
 
 Exodus 12:26-27
 26.  And when your children ask you, `What does this ceremony mean to you?'
 27.  then tell them, `It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.'" Then the people bowed down and worshiped.
 
(Many other Scriptures in the OT mention the PASSOVER)
 
And by the time Jesus appeared on Earth...............
 
Matthew 26:1-2
 1.  When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples,
 2.  "As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
 
Matthew 26:17-19
 17.  On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
 18.  He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, `The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'"
 19.  So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.
 
John 1:29
  The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 
 
John 1:36
   When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
 
John 19:14-15
 14.  It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.   "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
 15.  But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"   "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.   "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.
 
1 Corinthians 5:7
   Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
 
Acts 8:32-35
 32.  The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
 33.  In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth."
 34.  The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"
 35.  Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

 


And today, we have reduced a shared MEAL down to a chunk of cracker and a sip of grape juice....

 
 
 
Unworthily???
 
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
 27.  Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
 28.  A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
 29.  For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
 
Paul goes on, in the very next chapter, to explain exactly what he means by "the body of the Lord".
 
 
 Corinthians 12
 1.  Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.
 2.  You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
 3.  Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
 4.  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
 5.  There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
 6.  There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
 7.  Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
 8.  To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
 9.  to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
 10.  to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,  and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
 11.  All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
 12.  The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
 13.  For we were all baptized by  one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
 14.  Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
 15.  If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
 16.  And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
 17.  If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
 18.  But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
 19.  If they were all one part, where would the body be?
 20.  As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
 21.  The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
 22.  On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
 23.  and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,
 24.  while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
 25.  so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
 26.  If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
 27.  Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
 28.  And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
 29.  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
 30.  Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?
 31.  But eagerly desire  the greater gifts.   And now I will show you the most excellent way.
 
 

1,026 posted on 04/17/2005 5:12:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Conservative til I die
I'm not sure what the issue is over transubstantiation. It's not like there is anything in the text that shows Jesus to be goofing or using an analogy. He clearly says "This is my body/blood." Not, "This is like my body/blood" or "This is a symbol of my body/blood".

Jesus also said "I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he trims clean so that it will be even more fruitful." (John 15:1)

If I use your logic, Jesus was actually a vine and God the Father actually cut off parts of Jesus - it was not an analogy. Many of Jesus' teachings were done by analogy/allegory

Transubstantiation does not come from the bible, it was invented by men of the Catholic Church.

1,126 posted on 04/21/2005 11:27:39 AM PDT by Last Visible Dog
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