Text of Pope's Last Will and Testament

Associated Press ^ | April 7, 2005 | Associated Press

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** One can not be sinful and at the same time be "full of grace."***



You know, Mary isn't the only one called "full of grace" (Charitoo) in the NT...

"Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted (made us "full of grace" - Charitoo) in the beloved."

That doesn't make mean that Christians are sinless too does it?

According to Paul, Christian's are made "full of grace" just like Mary

[Proud_texan]

Thanks, but I can handle the religious stuff. It's the evolution stuff that I can't handle any more, not that I can't handle ideas or don't enjoy debate, it's just that after a bit being told I'm an ignorant, Bible thumping religious whackjob by my peers is, well, disconcerting.

I can't imagine what I'd be called if I were a "young earther"! ;->

[SoothingDave]

You know, Mary isn't the only one called "full of grace" (Charitoo) in the NT...

Yes.

That doesn't make mean that Christians are sinless too does it?

Of course. What do you think baptism is for? It removes Original sin and places us in the same sinless state that Mary was conceived in, and that Adam and Eve were born in.

Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily keep us from commiting further actual sin in our lives.

According to Paul, Christian's are made "full of grace" just like Mary

Yes, they are. At baptism. But most of us are either spiritually weaker or not as amply blessed as Mary and we soon return to sin. Thankfully, we have sacramental ways of returning to this sinless state.

SD

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** Of course. What do you think baptism is for?***

It is an outward sign of an inward repentance.



*** But most of us are either spiritually weaker or not as amply blessed as Mary and we soon return to sin. ***

So if Mary's extra something was not this being "full of grace" as we have seen, then what was it? Some special strength on her part? She was fully human right?

And what of her mother? Wouldn't she have to be immaculately conceived also to keep from staining Mary?

[SoothingDave]

You can explain to me what you think it means if you can endeavor to remain civil and not snide.

I know what "incorruptible" means. They are saints whose bodies, thought dead, have not decomposed. Their bodies, then, serve as visible miracles and reminders that God can resurrect the body (or keep it from decaying in the first place).

There is nothing creepy about witnessing a miracle.

SD

[SoothingDave]

It is an outward sign of an inward repentance.

It is a washing away of original and personal sin.

So if Mary's extra something was not this being "full of grace" as we have seen, then what was it?

Her being called "full of grace" testifys to her being sinless from her conception until the Annunciation. There was no baptism and there were no other sacraments. Any other human alive at the time would have original sin for sure and personal sin on their souls.

Besides being born without original sin, Mary also was given a special grace of perseverance, to allow her to live her entier life without sin.

Some special strength on her part? She was fully human right?

Yes, she was fully human. Any "special strength" she had was because God gifted her with it. But isn't that true of all of us?

SD

[Republican in CA]

This is getting tiresome. I'm using a definition from Webster's New World dictionary, and if your dictionary only shows the one definition you've stated, you need to get a "thicker," more complete dictionary.

Secondly, I've already had this conversation with Catholics. I was raised around Catholics (predominantly Filipino and Mexican-American) and I attended mass as a child with them.

I think what you keep repeating is the Catechism of the Church, but unfortunately, it's not necessarily the belief system of all Catholics that I have known.

[Republican in CA]

This is getting tiresome. I'm using a definition from Webster's New World dictionary, and if your dictionary only shows the one definition you've stated, you need to get a "thicker," more complete dictionary.

Secondly, I've already had this conversation with Catholics. I was raised around Catholics (predominantly Filipino and Mexican-American) and I attended mass as a child with them.

I think what you keep repeating is the Catechism of the Church, but unfortunately, it's not necessarily the belief system of all Catholics that I have known.

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** It is a washing away of original and personal sin.***

One can be saved, i.e. receive the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the regeneration and sanctification that that implies BEFORE baptism. See the story of Cornelius in Acts.


***Besides being born without original sin, Mary also was given a special grace of perseverance, to allow her to live her entier life without sin.***

Is there any Scriptural support for these beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that the Scriptures single out only ONE person as being sinless. This had to be made explicitly clear, because if Jesus was not sinless then his sacrifice would be ineffective.

In the narrative of the NT, Mary is seen as being on the same level as the other faithful followers of Jesus. Mary is not seen as the exalted mediator (-trix) the RCC makes her out to be. As proof I offer...

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."



***Any "special strength" she had was because God gifted her with it. But isn't that true of all of us?***

Not if the supposed "special strength" is in conflict with the clear witness of the Bible, i.e. "All have sinned..."

[wiley]

First, Mary knew Jesus to be God, she knew He was subject to her because He willing made Himself so by being her son. She became aware of a temporal need on the part of guests and from a human standpoint merely did what any mother might do, enjoin her son to help out.

Because the subject is a miracle and indeed the first recorded miracle of Christ, the spiritual dimension is also to be considered.

Recall that many of Christ's miracle were worked because of the faith of the requester: the curing of the centurion's son, the raising of Lazarus.

The faith is infused by God the Father, the request is prompted by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and Christ responds because it was God the Father's will that brought all the events to their proper time and place in Christ.

So, Mary's faith in God and Christ is what is on display here, as well as Christ's willingness to follow her pleading. As for the right time, indeed if he performed the miracle, it was the right time. God was speaking to His Son through His mother. Is that any less miraculous than Christ coming to the world through that same mother?

Have you ever felt that a particular pray on your lips was prompted by the Holy Spirit? And have you experienced that upon uttering it the prayer was immediately answered. Such a prayer is the most efficacious. It is a prayer put on a human's lips by God Himself to manifest His glory and power.

We believe that Mary's plea was such a prayer.

[SoothingDave]

One can be saved, i.e. receive the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the regeneration and sanctification that that implies BEFORE baptism. See the story of Cornelius in Acts.

I think you're getting off topic here. The point is, regardless of what we think of Baptism, that when Christians are regenerated they are at that time sinless. The Catholics have an explanation for how Mary was able to be in this state prior to Christ. Have you?

Is there any Scriptural support for these beliefs?

In so many words, no. Then again, the teachings of the Trinity are not in "so many words" either. You do believe in the Trinity, don't you?

I don't believe the Bible anywhere denies our ability to make reasoned conclusions from the material it reveals.

The fact of the matter is that the Scriptures single out only ONE person as being sinless. This had to be made explicitly clear, because if Jesus was not sinless then his sacrifice would be ineffective.

Jesus had to be blameless, yes. But the real point is that Jesus had to be God, the Infinite One. An infant is sinless, but crucifying an infant is not going to redeem the world.

In the narrative of the NT, Mary is seen as being on the same level as the other faithful followers of Jesus.

That's one way to read it. the way that wants to pull Mary down and make it seem as if Jesus has no regard for His mother.

The other way is that Jesus is telling us if we do the will of the Father we will be considered just like His mother.

Not if the supposed "special strength" is in conflict with the clear witness of the Bible, i.e. "All have sinned..."

Do you really believe "all have sinned" allows for noe exceptions? How do you define sin? Can infants and toddlers sin? What about the mentally handicapped?

SD

[Preachin']

Not so. A litany is a series of reverent titles, followed by the refrain "Pray for us."

How about the scriptures that tell us to "make our requests known unto God" and "come boldly before the throne of Grace""

[Petronski]

How about the scriptures that tell us to "make our requests known unto God" and "come boldly before the throne of Grace"


That's a good idea too.

[SoothingDave]

How about the scriptures that tell us to "make our requests known unto God" and "come boldly before the throne of Grace"

Well, even with intercessories, the requests still are made known to God. And one could argue that summoning the forces of all the saints in Heaven to make our petitions known is pretty bold.

SD

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** I think you're getting off topic here.***

True. Sorry, just addressing your point.




***The Catholics have an explanation for how Mary was able to be in this state prior to Christ. Have you?***

Mary did not need to be in a "sinless" state to give birth to Christ. Nothing in the entire Scriptural record indicates that his was a requirement. God can not be defiled by human contact.

She must be a virgin. That is the sign.

That is the miracle to show that the one within her is from the Holy Spirit.





*** I don't believe the Bible anywhere denies our ability to make reasoned conclusions from the material it reveals.***

Human thinking has a role, but it can never be the final arbiter of truth...

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Salvation came by revelation, not by reason. And the knowledge of that salvation is contained in the Scriptures.





***In so many words, no. Then again, the teachings of the Trinity are not in "so many words" either. You do believe in the Trinity, don't you?***

The existence of the Trinity is clearly taught by the Scriptures (as opposed to the immaculate conception). The Father, Son and Spirit are all unequivocally referred to a Deity. They are referred to together (individually distinct) as the names into which believers are baptized. Paul uses the term "theios" or "Godhead" in the sense that we would use "Trinity".

I believe in the "Trinity" because that is what the Scriptures teach. They do not teach the "Immaculate Conception".




***But the real point is that Jesus had to be God, the Infinite One.***

I totally agree. He had to be God to be able to be sinless and the Scriptures go out of there way to indicate that he was.

What of Mary's mother, or grandmother, or great grandmother, etc... - according to your beliefs, must they not all be sinless too?




*** That's one way to read it. the way that wants to pull Mary down and make it seem as if Jesus has no regard for His mother.****

Jesus loved his mother and honored her. But he did not teach people to idolize or be overly consumed with her as the RCC does. The passage under consideration should make this clear.




***...we will be considered just like His mother.***

...and sister, and brother I might add.

Have you fully taken in the meaning of this verse??? Would YOU like to be as close to Jesus as Mary?




***Do you really believe "all have sinned" allows for noe exceptions? How do you define sin?***


What do the Scriptures say?

Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"


"... no, not one."




***** Can infants and toddlers sin? What about the mentally handicapped?****

For goodness sake yes! I have had an infant and a toddler and let me tell you - they can sin! You have to teach a child to do good, you don't have to teach them to do bad. We have to teach our little one to share - we don't have to teach him to be greedy and stingy with his toys.

Sin is the inward inclination to unrighteousness. This is also what we inherited from Adam (as opposed to just inherited guilt for his sin).

Sin is like a cancer we are all born with. In infants and children it's advancement is mild - later in life we see it's rapid development. Nevertheless, all have the disease and all need the cure - the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

[Proud_texan]

SD - Perhaps I'm focusing on the wrong scripture but I've been looking at Luke 1:48

For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (KVJ, other translations use the same lowly state or something close).

My Strong’s Concordance says "lowly state" in the Greek meant spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt.

But then the scripture goes on to the ...called me blessed..section. Perhaps that means from that point on?

It's entirely possible I'm being myopic here by focusing too tightly but take verse 47:

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

If Mary is in a state of sinlessness and grace does she need a Savior?

I feel uncomfortable with what I might be taking away from the that verse and I'm not nearly completed in my study but I thought I'd pass it by you.

Thanks again for your time and thoughts. Also I was remiss in not thanking you for your kind words in a previous post, so allow me to do so now.