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To: SoothingDave
*** It is a washing away of original and personal sin.***

One can be saved, i.e. receive the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the regeneration and sanctification that that implies BEFORE baptism. See the story of Cornelius in Acts.


***Besides being born without original sin, Mary also was given a special grace of perseverance, to allow her to live her entier life without sin.***

Is there any Scriptural support for these beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that the Scriptures single out only ONE person as being sinless. This had to be made explicitly clear, because if Jesus was not sinless then his sacrifice would be ineffective.

In the narrative of the NT, Mary is seen as being on the same level as the other faithful followers of Jesus. Mary is not seen as the exalted mediator (-trix) the RCC makes her out to be. As proof I offer...

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."



***Any "special strength" she had was because God gifted her with it. But isn't that true of all of us?***

Not if the supposed "special strength" is in conflict with the clear witness of the Bible, i.e. "All have sinned..."
532 posted on 04/08/2005 9:36:16 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
One can be saved, i.e. receive the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the regeneration and sanctification that that implies BEFORE baptism. See the story of Cornelius in Acts.

I think you're getting off topic here. The point is, regardless of what we think of Baptism, that when Christians are regenerated they are at that time sinless. The Catholics have an explanation for how Mary was able to be in this state prior to Christ. Have you?

Is there any Scriptural support for these beliefs?

In so many words, no. Then again, the teachings of the Trinity are not in "so many words" either. You do believe in the Trinity, don't you?

I don't believe the Bible anywhere denies our ability to make reasoned conclusions from the material it reveals.

The fact of the matter is that the Scriptures single out only ONE person as being sinless. This had to be made explicitly clear, because if Jesus was not sinless then his sacrifice would be ineffective.

Jesus had to be blameless, yes. But the real point is that Jesus had to be God, the Infinite One. An infant is sinless, but crucifying an infant is not going to redeem the world.

In the narrative of the NT, Mary is seen as being on the same level as the other faithful followers of Jesus.

That's one way to read it. the way that wants to pull Mary down and make it seem as if Jesus has no regard for His mother.

The other way is that Jesus is telling us if we do the will of the Father we will be considered just like His mother.

Not if the supposed "special strength" is in conflict with the clear witness of the Bible, i.e. "All have sinned..."

Do you really believe "all have sinned" allows for noe exceptions? How do you define sin? Can infants and toddlers sin? What about the mentally handicapped?

SD

535 posted on 04/08/2005 10:09:37 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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