Posted on 04/05/2005 10:01:52 PM PDT by Coleus
For the last quarter of a century, this non-Catholic has had a pope. Now that John Paul II is gone, I am even more of an orphan than the Christians in the Roman church. For they will surely have another pope, but that one may not be mine, since I haven't converted.
I am sure I am reflecting the views of many Protestants. Who else but John Paul II gave voice to my faith and my values in 130 countries? Who else posited personal holiness and theological clarity against postmodern self-deception and egotism? Who else preached the gospel as tirelessly as this man?
What other clergyman played any comparable role in bringing down communism, a godless system? What other world leader—spiritual or secular—understood so profoundly how hollow and bankrupt the Soviet empire was, so much so that this tireless writer never bothered to pen an encyclical against Marxism-Leninism because he knew it was moribund?
Has there been a more powerful defender of the sanctity of life than this Pole, in whose pontificate nearly 40 million unborn babies wound up in trashcans and furnaces in the United States alone? What more fitting insight than John Paul II's definition of our culture as a culture of death—an insight that is now clearly sinking in, to wit the declining abortion rates in the United States?
In Europe some time ago, a debate occurred in Protestant churches: Should John Paul II be considered the world's spokesman for all of Christianity? This was an absurd question. Of course he spoke for all believers. Who else had such global appeal and credibility, even to non-Christians and non-believers?
Of course, there was the inveterate Billy Graham. There were many faithful Orthodox and Protestant bishops, pastors and evangelists.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
Do you really think Mary would want to be likened to Ishtar?
And Catholics would never do that? Such as purchasing an indulgence from the Church?
I don't think anyone could accuse Jesus' mother of being involved in any of that.
She's not God. Nobody is saying She is, but She does have a very special place in heaven.
well , we agree. Still, we cannot get past the scripture that abhors the "Queen of Heaven". the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. Perhaps you can begin to understand our aversion. It isn't Mary, it's the title
My post was in response to the writer's observation that this was "his pope" too.
My point.. he was not mine. I do not think that you have a right to expect that he be the pope of the whole world. The Reformation changed that. We believe the gospel is more important than public relations..
Please grieve your pope as you will. Just do not assume that all of us were enthralled by the man that kissed the Koran or said Jews did not need Jesus. All of us do not claim him as our own.
He is not my pope, He is yours.. Please do not expect all of us to grieve a man we did not celebrate..
Do you wonder then why the Anathemas of Trent aimed at Luther are still doctrine ?
I reckon Our Lady supersedes Ishtar.
It's only fair Mary gets a title that reflects her importance in the general scheme of things.
No it isn't. As a saint like any other, she deserves no title or recognition whatsoever, let alone a pagan baal one
The Mother of Christ deserves no special recognition?
I can't agree.
Jesus didnt give her any
she received the "reward of women". she bore the messiah. I am confident that she would be the first to tell you, that that alone is reward enough
Actually, protestants like to see what scripture teaches clearly. There are, of course, doctrines like the deity of Christ where there is not an overt statement, but many passages that teach it.
Stuff like the holy water and Mary remaining a virgin or being sinless, well that seems to be a belief in search of proof.
Anyway, I appreciate your response. AMPU
I do not know who the we you write of is; however, here is some information that may answer your concerns and ease your aversion.
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Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven |
| In a lasting vestige of anti-Catholic prejudice, a concerted effort to discredit the Church is being made today by some non-Catholic Christians who continue to propagate the falsehood that Catholics worship Mary OR that the devotion to the Blessed Mother is a continuation of devotion to the various mother goddesses of the ancient pagan pantheons. These charges can legitimately be called prejudices because they proceed from a prejudgment (made in advance based on preconceived ideas about what Catholics believe) and efforts to enlighten and convince with facts usually fall on deaf ears. However, it is necessary for Catholics to be forewarned about these on-going polemically, "prayer warfare" and "prophetic acts" (such as the smashing of a statue on Brazilian TV), so as not to be scandalized about their Catholic faith by such attacks.
Excerpt from: Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven
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Not only is the ratio completely inappropriate, but it's coupling with real prayer to God. In one breath, you say, "Our Father, who art in Heaven . . ." and rightly call it prayer, but in the next you say ten times, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen," and try to claim that it is not also a type of prayer.
Third, there is this segment of the closing prayer that I mentioned several posts ago:
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!Frankly, it's on the basis of this conclusion that I have to reject the thesis that Catholics merely ask Mary to pray for them as they would another believer on the earth. If I were to ask you to pray for me, I might say, "Mr. Miller, would you mind praying for me? I'm having trouble with . . ." I would certainly never say, "O Mr. Miller, my life, my sweetness, my most gentle advocate! Shine thy eyes of mercy upon me, etc." And if I did, I'll wager that you would never willingly receive it!
Fourth, this prayer gives several titles that rightly belong to God and His Christ alone over to Mary, thus sharing His glory (cf. Isa. 42:8).
- Christ is the life (Jn. 14:6)
- Christ is our hope (Ps. 71:5, Col. 1:27, 1 Tim. 1:1)
- The Lord and His Law are our sweetness (Ps. 19:9-10)
- To God we should cry (Jonah 3:8, Ps. 84:2, Lk. 18:7)
- Christ is our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1), our only Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
- It is God, through Jesus Christ, who shows mercy (Ps. 13:5, 52:8, 108:4; Rom. 9:16; Tit. 3:5), to whom mercy belongs (Dan. 9:9), whose mercy endures forever (1 Chr. 16:34), from whom we obtain mercy (1 Tim. 1:13-14), etc.
I could go further, but it really isn't my intention to merely nitpick. But you can plainly see why I have to regard the Rosary, the most oft-spoken prayer in all of Roman Catholicism, as completely inconsistant with Biblical Christianity. So long as it remains the centerpiece of the Catholic prayer life, I must in good concience regard the devotion to Mary in Roman Catholicism as meeting the criteria for worship, and her titles as usurping God's own.
The problem, I'm afraid, isn't that I am ignorant of Catholicism, but that I've spent too many hours studying it from its own writings.
Go to an Islamist country where people are shooting at you. Suddenly, you'll be quite happy to have that Catholic praying alongside you.
my coworker was talking to me so I was cornfused.
True.
The Jews heard it, that is why they wanted to stone Him (Blasphemy ) and it is why they hung Him on a Tree
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1.1-2).
'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'" (John 20:27-29).
Heb. 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."
and
Jms. 1:17, "The Father of lights, with Whom there is no variation or shifting shadows."
"I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning" (1 John 2:13).
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13)
Thee are many more, but this makes the point.. so we await your texts onas you put it
Stuff like the holy water and Mary remaining a virgin or being sinless, well that seems to be a belief in search of proof.
I am appalled at some of my fellow Protestants on this thread (and others) who are taking this man's death as an opportunity to belittle their fellow Christians. It is sickening.
I suggest you relax for some time -you appear weary from all your study.
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