Posted on 04/05/2005 10:01:52 PM PDT by Coleus
For the last quarter of a century, this non-Catholic has had a pope. Now that John Paul II is gone, I am even more of an orphan than the Christians in the Roman church. For they will surely have another pope, but that one may not be mine, since I haven't converted.
I am sure I am reflecting the views of many Protestants. Who else but John Paul II gave voice to my faith and my values in 130 countries? Who else posited personal holiness and theological clarity against postmodern self-deception and egotism? Who else preached the gospel as tirelessly as this man?
What other clergyman played any comparable role in bringing down communism, a godless system? What other world leader—spiritual or secular—understood so profoundly how hollow and bankrupt the Soviet empire was, so much so that this tireless writer never bothered to pen an encyclical against Marxism-Leninism because he knew it was moribund?
Has there been a more powerful defender of the sanctity of life than this Pole, in whose pontificate nearly 40 million unborn babies wound up in trashcans and furnaces in the United States alone? What more fitting insight than John Paul II's definition of our culture as a culture of death—an insight that is now clearly sinking in, to wit the declining abortion rates in the United States?
In Europe some time ago, a debate occurred in Protestant churches: Should John Paul II be considered the world's spokesman for all of Christianity? This was an absurd question. Of course he spoke for all believers. Who else had such global appeal and credibility, even to non-Christians and non-believers?
Of course, there was the inveterate Billy Graham. There were many faithful Orthodox and Protestant bishops, pastors and evangelists.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
Yes God sent His Son into the world… through the consent of His mother. God never destroys our freedom, and this was true of Mary as well during the Annunciation (the feast day of which was celebrated on Monday in the Church). The Incarnation of Christ began at her consenting to God’s plan as spoken to her through the angel Gabriel. Her “Yes” can be seen as a secondary cause of the Incarnation relative to God’s primary causality.
Look at it this way, if I ask you who wrote the Gospel of St. Matthew, is it not fair to say that it is the inspired Word of God primarily, but also the work of St. Matthew as God’s chosen active instrument? No need to create a false dichotomy between having to choose between God and Matthew in an either/or situation when the answer is a both/and result.
Sorry...you seem full of contradictions. First you say Catholics only pray "with" Mary, then you admit that they actually ask for her help which is not praying "with" but "to" her.
I have admitted already that in everyday parlance one will often say ‘to’ as opposed to ‘with’. Getting caught up in word games isn’t the goal here. The reality for Catholics is that all prayer is always and ultimately directed to God, and at times through the Saints. It is in this understanding that the correct language is ‘with’ the Angels or Saints as opposed to ‘to’ the Angels or Saints. It is with this understanding that, for example, the Church has always interpreted the prayers of the Saints as described in the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation). Otherwise, it would be in conflict with other passages and Books of the Bible.
Then you actually say that Christ came through Mary's word, even though trying to deny that you grant her undue esteem.
See above. Where have I denied her “undue esteem”. If by that you mean considering her as God, yes, that is heretical. The Church has never taught such nonsense, and in fact, condemned an early heresy in Arabia that offered sacrifices to her. Personally, the esteem I have for Mary is nowhere as high as it should be. As a follower of Christ it is my (and all Christians) calling to imitate Him. This includes blessing those whom He Blesses. Who do you think He Blessed more than His own Mother?
Sounds like she was believing God's message, unlike Zacharias.
Yes! That is correct. She carried Christ in her heart by Faith before she carried Him in her womb. The first follower of Christ and therefore first Christian!
Following her Faith in God came her ‘Yes’ to Him, and therefore the Incarnation of Christ.
Moreover, as someone who was suppose to be sinless, she still had to make an offering for her own sins (Lk.2:22 cf Ex.12:8)
[I take it you mean Leviticus?] Good point, a lot can be learned here about the utter humility of Christ.
The Law of Moses was two-fold: The purification of the mother, and the presentation and then redemption of her first-born. According to the Law a woman who bore a child was considered legally unclean. Not necessarily a reference to sin, though Catholics do believe that she was freed from all stain of sin. Because she bore Christ without intercourse and because her virginity remained intact after the birth of Christ, she was exempt from this Law – but submitted to it.
Likewise, for the redemption of the child, the sacrifice of a lamb, or a pair of doves for poor people, was not required for Christ. Yet, as St. Paul says “though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich” the offering of the poor was made on His behalf. Christ, through his family even as an infant, obeyed the Law even though He was completely exempt from it. And this done “for our sake”.
A wonderful article about a man who was a spiritual leader to all peoples -- not just Catholics and not just Christians.
I'm a Protestant, but that's a cheap shot.
Let's try to remember that Protestants and Catholics have FAR more in common than not.
ping!~
I get the distinction that the Catholic posters are making on this thread regarding Mary. However, what will be your position if Mary is infallibly declared "Co-Redemptrix"? There was plenty of pressures on John Paul II to make this declaration. In fact, if you were in Rome today, you would be able to view a cross with Christ crucified on one side, and Mary on the other side. My wife took a photograph of this cross when she was in Rome as a student.
I'm praying and pondering as to how to approach just this theme in my blog.
Dan
Actually, this is to all the Protestants on the thread:
Some of you have expressed admiration for the Pope, even if you are not of the same fold, and for that I am grateful and touched, as are all Catholics.
Some of you think this is a good time to flog us publicly about our beliefs, and certainly it is your right to express your opinion. However, I think it is not the time to do it.
These are the things I have had to deal with as a lifelong Catholic:
We know that you think that we worship statues, saints, and Mary.
We know that you think we worship the Pope.
We know that you think we don't read the Bible.
We know that you think that we are mentally unhinged.
I could go on, but I don't have a lot of time.
What you don't know is my prayer life, how much I DO read the Bible, what I am saying in the prayers that I send up to God every day. Yes, I give reverence to the Mother of God, but God is at the forefront of my mind when I pray or in what I do.
I don't follow you all around from thread to thread mocking your beliefs, even though I don't agree with them. It doesn't accomplish much but driving wedges in between people and driving up blood pressures. Not to say debate and discussion isn't healthy, because it certainly can be, but to some it seems to be an obsession about going around and smearing others and tearing down others' beliefs. Maybe I am just naive (I have been called worse), but that's just the way I see it.
I expect mocking and persecution for my beliefs, and I deal with them the best I can--with rational debate and with prayer for a calm demeanor in doing so. When all else fails, I pray for those on the other side of the debate.
Right now we mourn the death of a wonderful holy man of God, and you don't have to be Catholic to see that. If you can't even wait until he is in the ground to start trashing him and the Church, I don't know what else to say but I'll pray for you.
amen
Thank you.
Hello?
Well said.
Thank you for that.
Maybe. But what I believe Luther was saying is that you have the power within yourself through your Faith to be saved by God's Grace. You don't need anyone, be it another man, Pope or Saints to intercede on your behalf.
Mary is the "Comediatrix with Christ," according to Roman Catholic doctrine, one who was "immaculately conceived." Protestants disagree with that.
And we also disagree that Mary is omnipresent and omniscient. Only God is, and only God can hear the prayers of millions at the same time. Mary is in one place, and cannot multitask sufficiently to hear all the prayers directed toward her.
Again, many of us "Protestants" admire this past Pope, even though he dedicated his papistry to Mary. But many of us "Protestants" find RC doctrine unbiblical, and it's important that we not let our admiration for the man cloud our discomfort with his doctrine.
Mary is dead. I don't ask dead people to pray for me.
Most Christians believe in life everlasting. What sect are you part of?
SD
No, not actually. Don't confuse rumors with actual, professed dogmas.
And we also disagree that Mary is omnipresent and omniscient. Only God is, and only God can hear the prayers of millions at the same time. Mary is in one place, and cannot multitask sufficiently to hear all the prayers directed toward her.
So you know what is possible for human who have attained the status of Beiing in the Presence of God? (We call this the Beatific Vision.) You know that after the death of the body, Christian saints cease to be caring, involved members of the lives of those of us left on earth?
SD
But what does Mary currently "do" that Jesus Himself doesn't "do"? It is good to respect her, as she was favored to birth Jesus. But what benefit is there to talking with her, encouraging her to *do* (do what?) something for you? Is Jesus not kind and gracious enough?
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