KING: We'll spend our final moments discussing the Schiavo matter. In Atlanta is Reverend Jesse Jackson, back with us, he was with us earlier. Here in Los Angeles, George Thornally. In Denver, Colorado is Patrick Furlong. In Syracuse, New York is Reverend Barry Lynn.
Let me get to George Thornally's story first. You became completely paralyzed at age 16, possibly because of polio, assumed you would either die or survive as a vegetable. You survived, recovered, wrote the story in the book "Georgy Boy: Help, I'm Not a Vegetable." Are you saying because of your case, the feeding tube should remain?
GEORGE THORNALLY, RECOVERED FROM PARALYSIS: I think every case is probably different, but I can tell you this, in my case, as a vegetable, I was fighting for life with every part of my being, soul, brain.
KING: Were you aware of what was going on around you?
THORNALLY: Very aware, but I could not even grimace in pain.
KING: You were in pain?
THORNALLY: Terrific pain.
KING: But the neurosurgeons say about Terri, she is not in pain, she has been brain dead...
THORNALLY: Well, how would they know that? Have they ever been a vegetable?
KING: They showed a brain scan.
THORNALLY: Oh, well, that's a pretty gross determination, isn't it?
KING: They don't know, they don't even know how -- did you make any wish to have the thing pulled?
THORNALLY: No. I worry about all these young people who are saying in perfect health, if anything happens to me, please pull the plug. And I want to tell you, when you're in that condition, you're fighting for life and you don't want anybody pulling any plug.
KING: So you wouldn't -- you would reinstate her plug?
THORNALLY: Well, to answer your question, I would say yes.
KING: OK. Now, Patrick Furlong, your 82-year-old mother suffered cardiac failure during hospitalization for abdominal distress. You did not want her -- what's the story? You did not want her resuscitated?
PATRICK FURLONG, DYING MOTHER WAS RESUSCITATED DESPITE A DNR ORDER: No, Larry. As a matter of fact, we were very clear for many years. This is a case where all the T's were crossed and the I's were dotted. We had DNRs in place. And she was taken to the hospital for, as you say, abdominal distress, and about 10 hours later, she suffered cardiac and respiratory failure. And completely contrary to all of the paperwork and her wishes, she was actually resuscitated. And she had a very, very painful and terrifying 10-day experience until we finally -- finally let her go.
KING: It was your decision?
FURLONG: Yes, it was.
KING: Hard to make?
FURLONG: Doubly hard, really, because when you take the time and the trouble to put your DNRs in place, and get all of the end of life directives where they need to be, you don't rehearse emotionally to have to deal with it, because you've done the homework, it's done, it's over, you don't have to worry about that. And here you are suddenly faced with this horrendous decision.
KING: George, did you just wake up?
THORNALLY: After almost six months. I had a stellar experience about 3:00 in the morning, during which my body just mended and my brain knitted together, and I knew that I was going to live and that I was going to be all right.
KING: What did the doctors say?
THORNALLY: Well, everyone was shocked, because in the morning I pulled myself up, and when they came in, I said "hello, what are we having for breakfast?"
KING: Barry Lynn, what's wrong with the president's statement, err on the side of life?
REV. BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: I think the problem here, Larry, is that the Congress should never have gotten involved in this case. The religious right should not have gotten involved in Mrs. Schiavo's case. And with all due respect to my friend, Jesse Jackson, he should not have been involved here in this way.
It's trying to second-guess the legal and the medical judgments that have now been reviewed by 24 different courts and 24 attempted legal interventions. I think this is a civil rights issue. The question is whether Americans have a right to say no to life- sustaining therapies, whether that is a feeding tube, or a ventilator, or a kidney machine, and if they can't speak for themselves, who can we listen to? The courts have said Michael Schiavo have made that decision. People have challenged that decision in court, but I think now that all these processes have gone on, it's time to let Mrs. Schiavo go in the care of that hospice, which has been nothing but kind to her throughout this entire process.
KING: Jesse, why are you involved?
JACKSON: Well, because I feel passionate about her life. I feel that she has been dealt a severe injustice. As a minister, I have dealt with these cases before. A friend (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a few months ago, his son called and said, dad is in extreme stage of cancer. And at that time, he was taking Demerol, because of pain. He slid into a coma. And then, his pulse began to drop -- it was clear at that time that he was dying. We pulled the plug and he died.
In the case of Terri, here's a case where they pulled the tube for feeding and water, now we're just waiting and watching her starve and dehydrate to death. On the one hand, we have food and water, but we will not give it to her. And so we're looking at her there, waiting for her to die. That is very cruel. And I'm convinced that the law is important, but the law must be informed by mercy to be just.
KING: What's your last resolve here? Are you trying to get the Senate to do something?
JACKSON: We're really, we're praying for a miracle. There are some senators who are now working, trying to get an emergency legislation to get the tube in her while they litigate and keep debating. I don't know why we're so impatient.
Now, of course, I think on the one hand, we keep fighting for her life. But an issue beyond her life, we're being informed about this tragedy, there are those who embrace her; we must also now embrace long-term health care. What's not embraced are others in the same or similar predicament. So even (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we're being healed by her strifes.
LYNN: Jesse, the truth is, this is a woman who's been through 15 years of this. At some point -- and this is not a technical issue, this is a moral question -- at some point, one has to say, the system has done all it can do; now we have to take the caregivers there and let them do what is necessary in these final days, and to continue to politicize this in any way, from the left, the right or the center, is a terrible addition to a tragedy that's gone on... (CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it, Jesse. Let me get the thoughts of...
JACKSON: That is immoral, and unethical, and unnecessary.
KING: Let me get the thoughts of our two guests. Patrick Furlong, what do you think?
FURLONG: I feel -- my heart goes out to Michael Schiavo. My heart goes out to the Schindlers. I honestly cannot imagine the agony that they're going through. They're a tug toy being pulled backwards and forth.
KING: George?
THORNALLY: The Appellate Court in Atlanta is comprised of three justices, one of which dissented. It's not widely reported.
KING: It was 2-1.
THORNALLY: Yes, and he, in his dissent, he started off quote, "I strongly dissent." And then he explained that the law has another aspect to it, that came to us from England with the common law called equity. When a court is asked to do something, it's asked to do equity. Equity allows flexibility, it allows the exercise of compassion.
So the court could have legally...
KING: But the vote was 2-1, and that's the way we live in this country, you know...
THORNALLY: Right, right, right.
KING: Majority rules in courts.
THORNALLY: But the legal system is not bereft of the opportunity to express compassion.
KING: Jesse, frankly, is there any hope for your cause?
JACKSON: Well, it's hope against hope. We pray for a miracle. What pains me so deeply is how we can become so callous about life that we can look at a woman, who after 10 days of no food and no water, she still has vital signs. You would be dying if you didn't have food and water for 12 days. Now, why in that condition, they don't allow her to have water for her lips, her parched lips?
LYNN: Reverend Jackson...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: ... seems to me, that's just cold.
LYNN: Reverend Jackson, the compassion question was raised. The challenges have been made. These are not justices who just look at the statute books and have no compassion and no concern. The point is, they've evaluated the judgments, the medical judgments.
You and I are not doctors, we are not judges. We have never examined this woman. We have only to expect that the best has been done and that the best needs to be continue to be done in her life.
KING: All right, gentlemen, got to stop, we're out of time, but we'll do more on this tomorrow night. Also tomorrow night, we'll do more on the death of Johnny Cochran. We hope to have more visits with George Thornally and Patrick Furlong as well.
Thank you very much, George.
THORNALLY: Thank you.
KING: And Reverend Jesse Jackson and Reverend Barry Lynn.
Jesse Jackson might just be the hero on this one, I will give him his Kudos if his efforts will be shown to be what saved Terri
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening, again, everyone. Terri Schiavo has begun her 12th day without a feeding tube, both sides agree now, the end is drawing close. Mrs. Schiavo is reportedly no longer producing urine, a sign her kidneys may be shutting down.
That said, those who want to save her have not stopped fighting, at least not publicly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): This evening, Mrs. Schiavo's mother, Mary Schindler made a public plea to her daughter's husband, Michael Schiavo, and to his girlfriend Jody.
MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: Michael and Jody, you have your own children. Please, please give my child back to me.
BROWN: Outside Terri Schiavo's hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, supporters of Michael Schiavo have joined the crowd of protesters, though they remain vastly outnumbered. And, as you probably know by now, the Reverend Jesse Jackson joined the protesters, and entered the fight on the side of the Schindler family, calling for Florida lawmakers to pass emergency legislation to intervene.
REV. JESSE JACKSON, POLITICAL ACTIVIST, SUPPORTS SCHINDLERS: I was on the phone today, talking with members of the Senate, asking them to be creative enough to try to fashion some emergency legislation to stop the starving, to stop the dehydration.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: An outline of another sad day in the Schiavo case.
We're joined now from Pinellas Park by Larry Klayman, attorney and former general council of Judicial Watch. He's been with the Schindler family over the past few days, and is in this, as he is in virtually everything I've ever known him to do, a passionate proponent, in this case of that cause.
Larry, it's good to see you.
LARRY KLAYMAN, ATTORNEY, FMR. GEN. COUNCIL, JUDICIAL WATCH: Thanks, Aaron, it's good to see you, too.
BROWN: Can you give me a concrete idea that your side has that could turn this around at this point?
KLAYMAN: The Reverend Jackson articulated it very well. He reached out to us. Obviously, we've asked the governor for his help. We believe that he has the executive power. He's a good man, he's been a good governor, we'd like him to act. He has the ability to grant clemency to Terri, in fact, restore her civil rights. But if that does not happen, the legislature in Florida is really where we're at right now.
We're trying to reintroduce legislation that was voted down last week. We're looking for senators to support -- state senators -- Jesse Jackson is playing an instrumental role. We believe he will turn around at least three senators, and the procedures exist that this legislation can be reenacted, very, very quickly, perhaps within a day. Now, we're racing the clock, and we urge Jesse Jackson and those senators in Tallahassee to get the job done quickly before it's too late.
BROWN: Larry, someone speaking for the state house in Florida said that they wouldn't get to this till next Tuesday at the earliest, even if it passed the senate.
KLAYMAN: That person is mistaken because they'll be reintroducing the legislation that was discussed last week in the Senate. It can be reintroduced tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. for a new vote. The senate can vote upon it. It will go over to the house. The house would then have an opportunity to adopt the senate bill or house bill. That would then be sent back to the senate. It could all be done in one day, and the whole job could be signed by the governor tomorrow evening. It can happen, if everything breaks the right way. We thank Reverend Jackson for being here and working very hard to get this thing done.
BROWN: Larry, a couple of other things. You said to us earlier today when we talked that the legal system had failed both sides. Let me just play this back to you for a second. This case has probably been litigated as much as any right-to-life or right-to-die case in the history of any country. Each side has had doctors, the court has appointed doctors, Ms. Schiavo has had a guardian, independent of her husband, looking out for her interests. It may be the outcome isn't an outcome that people are comfortable with, and that makes sense to me, but how can you argue that the system failed?
KLAYMAN: Aaron, I saw it in a smaller way. You know, over the years -- that's why I started Judicial Watch in 1994. I'm now in private practice, having run for the senate down here, and this was a big part of my campaign, is that we need to do something about the system where we don't have the best and brightest on the bench. Now, how could this Judge Greer have made a decision, that there was clear and convincing evidence, when the evidence here was simply that Terri had made a statement watching an episode of E.R., of emergency room?
And when that kind of a situation arises, there are judges that are supposed to review the decisions of other judges. But judges, like everybody else -- lawyers, doctors, you name it -- protect themselves, and they rally around, they group the wagons, and that was the reason for Judicial Watch, was to watch judges, and it performs a valuable function.
But, beyond that, the lesson that will be taken out of this -- and let's pray that Terri lives, because not only do we want her to live as a human being, but she'll be very helpful in getting the job done -- is that we need better judges on the bench, number one, and number two, in the family law system -- and I had a tragedy in my own family where my grandmom had a do not resuscitate order put on her charts and my stepdad at the time told the hospital not to feed her. I went in as the grandson, I had no standing, just like the Schindler family. My grandmother was the closest person in my life, and we need to revise the family laws which simply do not serve the interest of the American people.
BROWN: That is a great conversation, honestly, to have, and we ought to have it, and I'd love to have it with you, perhaps, tomorrow or after this terrible tragedy ends, because there will be other chapters no matter how it ends. That's a good place to start.
Larry, it's good to see you.
KLAYMAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Aaron. God bless.