Posted on 03/19/2005 6:18:41 AM PST by NYer
I agree.Too many questions that imo will never be resolved.
BUMP
One reason might be that the core vein of discussion seems to orbit around this notion of finding scientific evidence of Jesus' life.
If this Shroud is an image of Jesus, it would be a fascinating thing, and I think it is.
But for the record, I believe the Churches record on many miracles like Fatima and Lourdes. I just dont see how it is applicable to this discussion.
What did you have in mind that would?
There are two types of faith - one is logical and rational (to the extent that the belief is formed by properly functioning cognitive faculties). That sort of "faith" is based upon perfectly valid / warranted presuppositions. The other type of "faith" is illogical and irrational because it's based upon feelings / emotions / superstition.
For instance, you will find that the sort of "faith" it takes for a rational mind to believe that others besides himself have a mind --(and aren't just pre-programmed robots)-- is never militant, rabid or hostile about that "faith".
Then there's the other sort of faith.
Wow -I never considered that -thanks for wetting yourself.
Forgive the pun but this topic will forever be "shrouded" in mystery and that's only if it is "that shroud." There is no proof positive of what Christ looked like or any witnesses upon whom to call concerning his appearance. Just another iconic symbol to "worship" rather than the real thing.
You have much faith in your rational theory of and by man.
You didn't get the point. I'm confident that you aren't able to get it, either.
Most definitely.
LOL -yes my inferior intellect could not decipher your profound rationale.
It doesn't matter.
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..."
While The Shroud may be interesting as a religious icon, it has no worth or purpose to those who believe that Jesus is Lord and have given over control of their lives to Him.
Is it fascinating? Yes. Do we need to find provenance of it's autheticity? Not so much.
I know where you're coming from, and I believe we're of one mind. But I wouldn't waste too much time trying to explain it to someone for whom "faith" means "believing in something preposterous simply because it makes me feel better."
If you ever see me riding in the boats of one-armed boat-rowers for more than two laps, you will know that I have lost my rationality and succumbed to preposterous beliefs myself. :)
I am just saying that these scientists are trying to change the rules of proof in a way that has little interest to the church. Surely, you realize that there is no way that carbon dating can, in fact, prove that the image is Jesus. The problem is that the "chain of custody" was broken. So, science is a dead end, here. It can only debunk. I suggest you look at what the church says. Its standards are very rigorous.
I understand that any dating, even to the 1st century would not necarily prove it is Jesus' Shroud. But I think the circumstantial evidence narrows it down pretty tight.
I respect the churches authority and competence, but I still feel like scientific standards of evidence are a bit different in that it looks solely at natural evidence that can be replicated, unlike, say Fatima.
So it is a tougher arena, and it intrigues me that the evidence thus far seems to point at something unnatural occuring - ie the tomb was emptied within a few days of JEsus' burial or the Shroud would have decayed.
JFK_Lib - That would have to be one big tile, wouldnt it?
Mr Ramsbotham - Most definitely.
JFK_Lib - So are there examples of similarly large tiles in that time and culture?
The second form of faith is irrational, but no less valid for a means to discern truth and ascertain information about the world around us in practical terms.
Intuition, experience, emotional reactions have a validity to them independent of reason or revelation. One might think of some of it as a personal inductive-deductive process, but it would not be statistically valid.
Nonetheless were I to need a guide through the deep woods relying on a guid alone (no GPS, etc) I would much rather have an experienced guide than a scientist without the experience of living in those particular woods.
Were I to guage the prevalence of certain activities or opinions in a parish, I would trust the confessional priest more than some survey of that parish.
And I will trust my own instinct when seeking a partner (in fact I have and we are still married after 18 years) rather than rely on some scientific matching process, lol!
In our day-to-day lives we far more rely on experience, intuition and emotional 'gut reaction' to guide us than on reason or science.
Given that Christianity has outlived the Atomists fromt he ancient world and number int he billions, it would seem that a Darwinistic analysis would suggest that nonrational methods can work quite well, in fact.
And please dont pretend that anyone, especially scientists, are unaffected by nonrational factors like love, money or the desire to be popular among their peers.
I hate to break it to you, but Christianity is a RATIONAL faith
Plenty of life-size stone images, yes; and many larger-than-life.
Not that precisely. The late Dr. Raymond N. Rogers postulates that the shroud is from 1300 to as much as 3000 years old, depending on the ambient temperatures in may have encountered during its existence. He bases this on the fact that the shroud shows no traces of Vanillin in the linen which degrades and disappears over time. The only area of the Shroud that DOES show Vanillin is the medieval patch invisibly rewoven into the shroud... at the area tested by the C14 labs in 1988.
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