Posted on 02/22/2005 1:00:01 PM PST by nickcarraway
A group of about a dozen students and activists wearing "Save Terri Schiavo" T-shirts stood outside the Reitz Union on the University of Florida campus at noon Monday.
As students hustled past on their way to lunch, the demonstrators asked passersby to sign a petition calling on Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer to step down from the case that has been fought in the courts for nearly eight years.
Schiavo, now 41, suffered severe brain damage 15 years ago. She resides in a Pinellas Park hospice. Her husband, who has testified that his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially, has asked that her feeding tube be removed.
That order could come from the 2nd District Court of Appeal as early as 1 p.m. today.
Schiavo's brother, 40-year-old Bobby Schindler, was in Gainesville for the rally. Schindler argued that a dozen doctors who have voluntarily looked into his sister's case believe that she could be helped, that with intensive therapy, she could be taught to speak and eat on her own again.
"We are trying to educate people as to the facts of this case," Schindler said. "Nobody knows the facts, because they aren't being reported to the public."
Some doctors have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery. Others have said she still has some mental capabilities. She left no written directive for her family or her husband to follow.
Brother Paul O'Donnell of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis was among the speakers at Monday's rally.
The black-robed Franciscan brother said the eyes of the nation are on Florida, and the decision in the Schiavo case which could come today.
If the court rules that Schiavo's feeding tube must be removed so that she can die, O'Donnell said it would launch "a tsunami of euthanasia."
Schiavo is not in a coma, and she is not brain dead, he insisted.
"She is a disabled, brain-injured woman who uses a plastic tube to eat instead of a knife and fork," O'Donnell said.
"If Florida kills Terri Schiavo, there are hundreds of thousands of residents in nursing homes in this state who need a nurse's aide to feed them, or are dependent upon feeding tubes, who could find themselves in the same position. It would be the start of a tsunami of euthanasia."
The Schiavo case has drawn international attention and rallied right-to-life and religious forces worldwide.
Matthew Irwin heads the student group Gators for Terri, which sponsored the rally. Irwin said he hoped to send a message to Judge Greer, who is a graduate of UF's Levin College of Law, that not everyone supports the position of the court.
"We believe that Terri has the right to live," Irwin said.
"Yes, i would agree with that. provided that she is NOT in a permanent vegetative state, and she could recover. It certainly seems POSSIBLE that there is a POSSIBILITY that she could recover somewhat."
I thought it was clear what i meant: if there is some POSSIBILITY, logically, the tube should not be removed. Im sorry if I was not explicit enough... However, I followed that statemennt with this:
"Not to criticize other people's activism on behalf of there beliefs, but for myself, i can't hold an opinion one way or another on the fate of a woman whom i have never met or seen in the hospital."
Which clearly shows that I recognize I do not have the information to hold an opinion on this woman's future. Finally I said:
"However, as a medical student and, of course, a believer in medical science, I am INCLINED to trust the doctors. but, yes, i could be wrong... it wouldn't be the first time..."
This statement says that am "inclined" to trust the doctors. From my personal and proffessional experience, most doctors are smart, hard working, and have the best intentions. If doctors say that a patient will never recover, my first instinct is to proceed on the basis that they are corrrect. However, doctors obviosuly can make mistakes.
How you interpreted THAT to mean that I want to starve and dehydrate disabled people is beyond me.
But, perhaps you are just trying to get a rise out of me, or perhaps you are so blinded by your own ideologies that you have lost all capacity for rational thought. Perhaps me still typing about this at 2:30 in the morning when I have a ton of work to be doing is completely and totally futile...
I did not write post #32. I didn't put those words in jon's mouth.
I don't remember having a disagreement with you, but if you were advocating forced exit for disabled patients, I wouldn't be at all surprised if I disagreed.
Yes, I confronted Hair over his dispicable posts. People read more than just the posts put up by Terri's supporters. They also read the lies posted by trolls. You can let the lies stand, gloss over them if you want, and even agree if that suits your purpose. I'm not going to do that.
"The only difference is that the Nazis didn't always torture their victims to death. Sometimes they gave them lethal injection."
ok.. so now your saying that i am WORSE than the Nazis. I don't know how to respond to that..
Because you stated that her right to live depended on her not being PVS, and that she must also be able to recover. You said it. I didn't make you say it.
You could respond by explaining how your plan to exterminate severely disabled patients is more humane than the Nazis. Unless it isn't.
ok
lets try to relax a bit here. both of us.
let me ask you a question. do you believe that Terri is in fact in a permanent vegetative state?
I got a call from my son. This could take awhile. I get back to you.
"If there was even a hint of a question as to what her true wishes were, wouldn't you think it the better part of valor to err on the side of her life being preserved?"With...
Yes, i would agree with that. provided that she is NOT in a permanent vegetative state, and she could recover.
Thank you! I've enjoyed yours too. : )
Thanks and good night.
good night trinity.
Well, i dont know if ill still be here when you get back Bayb, but this might be the basis of the misunderstanding:
I was using a very strict definition of PVS, which is only a rhetorical condition since it could never be diagnosed 100%. Under the definition which I am familiar with, the examples of "people waking up from PVS" are in fact examples of misdiagnosis of PVS.
PVS in the strict sense is defined as:
[PVS patients] are considered to have PERMANENTLY (ie no chance of recovery) lost the function of their cerebral cortex. ... All voluntary reactions or behavioral responses reflecting consciousness, volition or emotion at the cerebral cortical level ARE ABSENT. ...there is NO OBSERVABLE EXPERIENCE OF PAIN OR SUFFERING (that is, no change in heart rate, respiratory rate, or blood pressure in response to physical stress). ... THEY REMAIN PERMANENTLY UNAWARE... (5)
...and the higher centers of their brains have been permanently damaged in a way that RULES OUT ANY RETURN TO CONSCIOUSNESS. They are capable of NO SENSATION AND NO THOUGHTS. (6)
The central issue then is whether or not Terri is in PVS, something that appears to be questionable at best.
As for someone who is in, without any doubt (a hypothetical person since there will always be SOME doubt), PVS, I would support letting nature run its course, and allowing the body to pass accordingly. The soul has already left, and is not coming back.
Thank you. And again, sorry for jumping on you earlier, as maybe you can tell, this thread has gotten me a bit on edge..
I believe that Michael is trying to conceal any evidence that might show she isn't. Occam's razor suggests that the only reason he would go through so much trouble would be if he wanted to avoid anyone seeing the evidence. Since he would be happy to have people see evidence that supported his case, I believe he suspects or knows the evidence does not.
How would you prevent misdiagnosis by doctors who 'want' to find that a patient is PVS?
well since there doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee against misdiagnosis of PVS by doctors who want there patients to not be in PVS, it seems even more far off that we could prevent it among doctors who want their patients to be in PVS. right?
Indeed. I wonder if any of the people who want Terri dead can supply a list of doctors who are not Hemlock Society members that believe she is PVS?
I have no legal expertise but, isn't hearsay disallowed in court?
Question:
If a person is brain dead, wouldn't that person have to be
on total life support? The brain would be unable to
keep the organs functioning?
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