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To: RaceBannon
if it weren't for Bible Believing Christians, you wouldn't have science that we have today, like Newton, Morse, Fulton, George Washington Carver, Farraday, Boyle, Lister...shall I go on?

I'll stop you right there; Newton wasn't really a 'Bible-believing Christian'; he was a devout Unitarian who believed the Bible had been corrupted by Trinitarian heresies.

417 posted on 02/21/2005 10:09:05 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor; RaceBannon; PatrickHenry; Matchett-PI; Dimensio; shubi; RightWingAtheist; ...
I'll stop you right there; Newton wasn't really a 'Bible-believing Christian'; he was a devout Unitarian who believed the Bible had been corrupted by Trinitarian heresies.

Furthermore, Newton et al made contributions to science and human knowledge precisely because they were able to set their religious convictions *aside* long enough to look and see the manner in which the Universe acts *naturally* regardless of religious dogma, instead of falling back on the fundamentalist creationism of the Dark Ages which simply declared, "all things happen because God wills them to" and considered that sufficient "explanation" in itself.

Additionally, Newton is an especially egregious example for the creationists to cling to, because over half of Newton's writings during his lifetime consisted of navel-gazing religious ramblings, which had no lasting value and certainly did not advance science or mathematics in any way. Imagine the additional benefits to the progress of mankind that would have resulted if Newton had dropped his "creationist" musings and spent *all* of his time exploring science itself? Newton's adherence to creationism wasted fully half of his genius.

Let's have a look at how dogmatic creationism actively stifled scientific progress, shall we? This example is from a few hundred years ago, but the parallels to the anti-science attitudes, objections, arguments, and activities of modern creationists should be entirely obvious:

Biblical dogma: "The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved." -Psalms 104:5

Scientist )Galileo): "The doctrine of the movements of the earth and the fixity of the sun is condemned [by creationists] on the ground that the Scriptures speak in many places of the sun moving and the earth standing still… I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the Scriptures, but with experiments and demonstrations.", "I accepted the Copernican position several years ago and discovered from thence the cause of many natural effects which are doubtless inexplicable by the current theories. [i.e., the new theory better matched and explained the observations - Ich.]" -- Galileo Galilei

Creationist rebuttal: "But to want to affirm that the sun really is fixed in the center of the heavens and only revolves around itself (i. e., turns upon its axis ) without traveling from east to west, and that the earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves with great speed around the sun, is a very dangerous thing, not only by irritating all the philosophers and scholastic theologians, but also by injuring our holy faith and rendering the Holy Scriptures false. [...] And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. [...] Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the center of the universe and the earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the earth but the earth circled the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated. But I do not believe that there is any such demonstration; none has been shown to me. It is not the same thing to show that the appearances are saved by assuming that the sun really is in the center and the earth in the heavens. [...] I add that the words 'the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.' were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God."
-- Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, April 12, 1615 letter to Foscarini.

Papal condemnation/sentencing of Galileo: "Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots," wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it [i.e. for disagreeing with Bible-based criticisms - Ich.] [...] This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, [...] The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. [...] Furthermore, in order to completely eliminate such a pernicious doctrine, and not let it creep any further to the great detriment of Catholic truth, the Holy Congregation of the Index issued a decree which prohibited books which treat of this and declaring the doctrine itself to be false and wholly contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture. [...] Likewise, you confessed that in several places the exposition of the said book is expressed in such a way that a reader could get the idea that the arguments given for the false side were effective enough to be capable of convincing, rather than being easy to refute. [...] We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, Galileo, by reason of these things which have been detailed in the trial and which you have confessed already, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspect of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctrine that is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: namely that Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] Consequently, you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated by the sacred Canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents. [This includes torture - Ich.]

Under threat of torture, and mindful that the Church had already burned at the stake Giordano Bruno for the same "crime", Galileo publicly renounced his "false" doctrine that the Earth revolves around the Sun: "I, Galileo Galilei, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, arraigned personally before this tribunal, and kneeling before you [...] I wrote and printed a book in which I discussed this doctrine already condemned, and adduced arguments of great cogency in its favor [horrors! - Ich.], without presenting any solution of these [i.e., without reconciling it with the Church's interpretation of Scripture -- Ich.]; and for this cause I have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves. [...] with sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the aforesaid errors and heresies, and generally every other error and sect whatsoever contrary to the said Holy Church; and I swear that in the future I will never again say or assert, verbally or in writing, anything that might furnish occasion for a similar suspicion regarding me"
-- Galileo's forced recantation, June 27, 1633

Despite this Inquisition-ordered renunciation of the truth, Galileo was held under house arrest by the Inquisition until the day he died, many years later on January 8, 1641...

Galileo was right -- the Church was wrong. Or as the famous explorer Ferdinand Magellan said, in reference to a clash between the trustworthiness of direct evidence over dogma, "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." (Ferdinand Magellan, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 461.)

How long does it take creationists to admit they were wrong about an obvious scientific truth? Galileo's banned book stating the "heresy" that the Earth revolves around the Sun, "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems", was finally taken off the Vatican's list of banned books in 1835 -- almost 200 years after Galileo was forced to denounce it.

How long before they finally stop fighting the "false heretical doctrine" of evolutionary biology?

I'll close with some various appropriate quotes from Galileo -- note how much they sound like what various evolutionists have been posting here on FreeRepublic:

"To command the professors of astronomy to confute their own observations is to enjoin an impossibility, for it is to command them not to see what they do see, and not to understand what they do understand, and to find what they do not discover."

"And who can doubt that it will lead to the worst disorders when minds created free by God are compelled to submit slavishly to an outside will? When we are told to deny our senses and subject them to the whim of others? When people devoid of whatsoever competence are made judges over experts and are granted authority to treat them as they please? These are the novelties which are apt to bring about the ruin of commonwealths and the subversion of the state."

"Facts which at first seem improbable will, even on scant explanation, drop the cloak which has hidden them and stand forth in naked and simple beauty."

"It is surely harmful to souls to make it a heresy to believe what is proved."

"It is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the holy Bible can never speak untruth -- whenever its true meaning is understood. But I believe nobody will deny that it is often very abstruse, and may say things which are quite different from what its bare words signify."

"My dear Kepler, what would you say of the learned here, who, replete with the pertinacity of the asp, have steadfastly refused to cast a glance through the telescope? What shall we make of this? Shall we laugh, or shall we cry?"

"In order to convince those obdurate men, who are out for the vain approval of the stupid vulgar, it would not be enough even if the stars came down on earth to bring witness about themselves."

"I repent having given the world a portion of my writings; I feel inclined to consign what is left to the flames and thus placate at last the inextinguishable hatred of my enemies."

"By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox."

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

"It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment."

"Nothing physical which sense-experience sets before our eyes, or which necessary demonstrations prove to us, ought to be called into question (much less condemned) upon the testimony of biblical passages."

For more details, see:
The Galileo Project

The Trial of Galileo


427 posted on 02/22/2005 3:56:27 AM PST by Ichneumon
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