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To: NYer; lupie; jkl1122

I also believe Jesus was a lovely child.

I still contend that the cloth around his head was separate from the grave clothes "shroud".

Lazarus was able to come forth "BOUND hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound with a napkin. Jesus said unto them, "Loose him, and let him go". John 11:44

John 19:40 "Then they took the body of Jesus, and WOUND it in the linen clothes...".

John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but WRAPPED together in a place by itself.

I contend that Jesus' body was buried in the same manner as Lazarus' body. Wound, bound, wrapped, you name it, in such a fashion, that getting free of it was difficult, to say the least (you're not supposed to get free of it, you're supposed to stay dead, but that's another sermon). From the dimensional data I've seen on the "shroud", one thing is most telling: It would have had to have been wrapped perpendicular like wrapping the handle on a baseball bat to succeed in binding someone.

Another thought: We all know that people were just as cunning hundreds of years ago as they are today. I have suspected, as have others, that someone(s) decided to manufacture proof of Jesus existance (The Holy Ghost is ample proof for me). It has probably made some (or a lot of) money for those connected to it through the centuries.

And another thought: I have to wonder if Jesus blood type was not just rare, but one of a kind, never before or since found on this planet.


41 posted on 02/12/2005 1:20:24 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel
I still contend that the cloth around his head was separate from the grave clothes "shroud".

That is correct!

One of the relics held by the cathedral in the town of Oviedo, in the north of Spain, is a piece of cloth measuring approximately 84 x 53 cm. There is no image on this cloth. Only stains are visible to the naked eye, although more is visible under the microscope. The remarkable thing about this cloth is that both tradition and scientific studies claim that the cloth was used to cover and clean the face of Jesus after the crucifixion.

Such a cloth is known to have existed from the gospel of John, chapter 20, verses 6 and 7. These verses read as follows, "Simon Peter, following him, also came up, went into the tomb, saw the linen cloth lying on the ground, and also the cloth that had been over his head; this was not with the linen cloth but rolled up in a place by itself." John clearly differentiates between this smaller face cloth, the sudarium, and the larger linen that had wrapped the body.


How the sudarium was wrapped around the head

The stains on the sudarium show that when the cloth was placed on the dead man's face, it was folded over, although not in the middle. Counting both sides of the cloth, there is therefore a fourfold stain in a logical order of decreasing intensity.

From the composition of the main stains, it is evident that the man whose face the sudarium covered died in an upright position. The stains consist of one part blood and six parts fluid from a pleural oedema. This liquid collects in the lungs when a crucified person dies of asphyxiation, and if the body subsequently suffers jolting movements, can come out through the nostrils. These are in fact the main stains visible on the sudarium.

These stains in the nasal area are also superimposed on each other, with the different outlines clearly visible. This means that the first stain had already dried when the second stain was formed, and so on.

The sudarium alone has revealed sufficient information to suggest that it was in contact with the face of Jesus after the crucifixion. However, the really fascinating evidence comes to light when this cloth is compared to the Shroud of Turin.

The first and most obvious coincidence is that the blood on both cloths belongs to the same group, namely AB.

The length of the nose through which the pleural oedema fluid came onto the sudarium has been calculated at eight centimetres, just over three inches. This is exactly the same length as the nose on the image of the Shroud.

If the face of the image on the Shroud is placed over the stains on the sudarium, perhaps the most obvious coincidence is the exact fit of the stains with the beard on the face. As the sudarium was used to clean the man's face, it appears that it was simply placed on the face to absorb all the blood, but not used in any kind of wiping movement.

A small stain is also visible proceeding from the right hand side of the man's mouth. This stain is hardly visible on the Shroud, but Dr. John Jackson, using the VP-8 and photo enhancements has confirmed its presence.

The thorn wounds on the nape of the neck also coincide perfectly with the bloodstains on the Shroud.

Dr. Alan Whanger applied the Polarized Image Overlay Technique to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and bloodstains on the Shroud. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud.
FULL TEXT

I have to wonder if Jesus blood type was not just rare, but one of a kind, never before or since found on this planet.

Every now and then one reads in the news that some Image of the Madonna is weeping. Sometimes these tears are blood and the news are then much more impressive. The skeptics smile; the ecclesiastical authorities evaluate the event with great prudence, with good reason, and they avoid making definite judgments; science does not get involved, and if it does, it is at the level practiced by amateurs. Then, as time passes, the event becomes less interesting, fades from memory, and is soon forgotten. Only in very rare cases is the event of such importance that it is acknowledged as true and real and is then certified as authentic and of a supernatural origin. An example is the research that was carried out on the "Weeping Madonna of Syracuse." [It was declared authentic and of supernatural origin.]

The event involves two Sacred Icons that shed tears of blood on two separate occasions. The phenomenon lasted thirty minutes and was witnessed by other persons whom Padre Pietro had immediately called. This event was recorded on video tape. Padre Pietro wiped the blood with a handkerchief and sent it to a laboratory to be tested.

This laboratory has Scientific Authority, therefore a verdict released by this laboratory is of indisputable [unquestionable] value.

After carrying out all the tests, the laboratory researchers sent Padre Pietro an official document stating, in resume,

 
"The blood is human blood, of group AB, male, and was found to be identical in
the two samples tested, the blood from the tears from the Icon of the Virgin
 and the blood that appeared of the Face of Jesus are the same." But there is
more, the document continues from its evaluations to something that seems really
incredible: "the configuration of the genetic features found in the Y chromosome
 does not correspond to any of the configurations present in the world wide
 data bank where the data of 22,000 male subjects from 187 different populations
is kept."
And further on we read:
 
"This blood is so rare that it must be considered as almost unique.
 By calculation, the statistical probability of finding, in the course
of millennia, a typology of the same blood type, is almost nil, the
mathematical probability of this happening is in the order of
1 in 200 billion possible cases."
[In other words 1 on 200,000,000,000.]
 

FULL TEXT

48 posted on 02/12/2005 1:48:30 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: Zuriel

Not only that, but Isaiah says that the hair from his face was plucked, or beaten off. I believe that is confirmed in the NT somewhere - I would have to check on that.

People are going to believe in the shroud no matter how much it is debunked. And they will defend it until such time that He opens their eyes. It is human nature that people will "worship" a graven image, (whether it is actually carved or not - check out the usages and symbolism of how the word is used) or look for "miracles" instead of just trusting in the Risen Lord and His finished work. He even said so besides all the times that it is taught in the OT by example, etc.

I knew a microscopist who was the very top of his field who was asked to examine it and he found without a doubt that it was a fake - they weren't blood stains, but an iron compound, I think. But he was more or less threatened if he ever published his result. That was about 30 yrs ago.

But the bottom line - who cares? It makes no difference. I did find it a little amusing that the picture they show doesn't look very Jewish. :)


91 posted on 02/12/2005 4:07:32 PM PST by lupie
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To: Zuriel
John 19:40 "Then they took the body of Jesus, and WOUND it in the linen clothes...".

Your problem lies in the English translation and it is not a problem in the original Greek.

John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but WRAPPED together in a place by itself.

Again, the word WRAPPED is an English translation of a Greek word that is better translated as "wound about" or "wound around" which descibes the binding that was traditionally used to tie under the chin and over the top of the head to keep the mouth closed in death.

Your contention is not supported by the cultural and archeaological record. There were binding cloths used... one around the head, another to tie the wrists together, and perhaps one around the feet (although probably not needed).

111 posted on 02/12/2005 6:43:37 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Zuriel

There is a second piece of cloth that bears the same blood as the Shroud of Turin.

It has been at Oviedo, in Spain, and documented to have arrived there in the 6th Century.

The two pieces of cloth exist, and they both bear the same blood.
Few have heard of the Oviedo Cloth, but it is as real as the Shroud of Turin, and it is something of a "clincher", since it definitely predates the medieval period, and has the same man's blood on it as the Shroud.


194 posted on 02/12/2005 10:22:23 PM PST by Vicomte13 (La nuit s'acheve!)
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