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To: Kolokotronis; Cronos; SQUID; NYer; The_Reader_David; Vicomte13; sitetest; Tantumergo; monkfan; ...
Thank you Kolo. I think all of us named in your post will agree with your great summary. We have our doubts and ups and downs, but I think we have come a long way. We all somehow feel better about our differences. They are now more differences of opinion, rather than threats, or attacks. We have so much more in common than we all realized. In the vast majority of cases our differences are a matter of custom more than faith.

Asked if the Orthodox have a certain ritual practiced by Roman Catholics, I simply said "that custom did not develop in the East," knowing that people who make the sign of the cross the Catholic way invoke the same symbolism as those who cross the Orthodox way. In either case it is a "motion icon" -- a sign that makes us think of Him.

However, as Kolo says, our theological differences remain. Until they are clarified or resolved the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Patriarch of Rome, not because he is not the first among the Patriarchs, but because one church cannot be in communion with another church if the two churches do not teach one and the same theology.

The bulk of our differences is post-Schism, except the filioque, which remains a stumbling stone, although much has been done to show that the Catholic view does not imply dual origin and dual cause, nor does it diminish the Holy Ghost, as it may appear to the Orthodox mindset. I believe that the Church will eventually drop the Filioque, for the sake of unity and because the church in Rome doesn't use it, as well as because the Catholics can use it or not. For the Orthodox, the hands are tied on this issue.

As for the issues of imperial papacy, purgatory, Immaculate Conception and infallibility of the Pope (in matters ex-cathedra only), I am less optimistic.

But good will has done a lot of good to all of us. So, in all our exchanges, we should keep good will and brotherly love as our guides. We can only learn more from each other.

377 posted on 02/15/2005 6:04:50 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

It occurs to me, in light of the original subject of this thread, that another one of those gestures that ought to be made is that the Shroud of Turin, which I certainly believe to by the burial shroud of Christ, bearing his blood - the "Sangraal", the TRUE "Holy Grail", taken by the Crusaders from Constantinople in the sack of 1204, should be returned by the Pope to the Ecumenical Patriarch at Constantinople.

I have come to be convinced that the Shroud, called "of Turin", is the burial shroud of Christ, and bears his blood, and that the Oviedo cloth in Spain was the cloth that covered his head while preparing him for burial. I believe that these were the actual burial cloths that John spoke of in his Gospel, and that the powerful image of Jesus burnt into the tissue was left by God to his immediate followers, so that their consternation and horror at finding the empty turn would be instantly transformed into joy, wonder, and an urgent desire to run forth and proclaim to the world "Christ is risen!"

After all, how would they know that the body was not stolen?
By Jesus' appearance, of course.
But since I believe that God left that Shroud, they knew - those who went to the tomb and found it empty - even BEFORE they saw Jesus. For Jesus left THAT for them.

Indeed, since I believe that the Shroud is authentic, I think it is the only actual DOCUMENT left by Jesus of Nazareth. He didn't write a word, but he DID imprint that cloth with that miraculous image, and God DID preserve it for 20 centuries, even through a fire, and countless wars.
Why?
The Almighty has its purposes.
I believe that the Shroud of Turin is the Holy Grail, the most sacred relic on earth, because Christ INTENDED to leave it to us.
It was stolen from Constantinople in the terrible sack that embittered East and West, and that the Greek Orthodox still remember.

We cannot revive the ancient dead or rebuild the ancient walls. But we CAN atone for the sin of the sack, and make a powerful statement about the IMPORTANCE to Catholicism of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and the NEED to understand, to resolve all of our issues from history, to forgive, and to reunify, by giving the Holy Grail BACK to Constantinople, where it lawfully belongs.

It is the right thing to do.
And if done after an exhaustive new scientific study of the Grail that demonstrated its age and mystery, and put it on the front pages of the world, the SIGNIFICANCE of Rome's return of the Grail to the Ecumenical Patriarch would be seen and understood. "This is the holiest relic in Christendom, the Holy Grail containing the actual Blood of Christ, the one document that Jesus intended to leave us. It was yours, and our knights wrongly took it from you long ago in another time and age. This was wrong, and by returning to you the holiest relic in Christendom, for your safekeeping, we are making such atonement for that wrong as can be made these 800 years later. But we do not believe that in rendering this holy burial Shroud of Our Lord, containing His blood, to your care that this is passing out of the Catholic Church. No indeed. By this we recognize that you too are the Catholic Church, and we look forward with hope and joy to the day when our disputes and differences can be full and truly resolved, and we are all fully aware that whether the Shroud reposes in Torino or in Constantinople, it reposes within the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Christ to endure for all time, unto the end of the world. Amen.'

Obviously I should not be the Pope's speechwriter.
But that would be the right thing to do.
It would be the healing thing to do.
It would be the next step on a long path that must eventually lead to an Ecumenical Council of the Church, Eastern and Western, out of which comes a united Church in full communion.

A mere piece of cloth, though it be the Holy Grail itself, is a small downpayment for such a rich reward.

That's what I think.


379 posted on 02/15/2005 8:58:47 AM PST by Vicomte13 (La nuit s'acheve!)
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To: kosta50
As for the issues of imperial papacy, purgatory, Immaculate Conception and infallibility of the Pope (in matters ex-cathedra only), I am less optimistic.

I won't talk about the 2nd and third issues, but I do believe that the first issue is being resolved -- the present pope has emphasised the equality of the patriarchates with the patriarchate in rome -- though this needs to be reflected in the mindsets of all levels of the church! The last issue, I do think the infallibility of the Pope is purely related to dogmatic issues pronounced ex-cathedra and tradition would state that this would be only exercised after receiving wisdom from the Holy Spirit along with the other church elders
392 posted on 02/15/2005 4:07:08 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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