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Scientists find missing link between whale and its closest relative, the hippo
UC Berkeley News ^ | 24 January 2005 | Robert Sanders, Media Relations

Posted on 02/08/2005 3:50:43 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: Jaysun
If I had to prove my belief with science I'd be having just as much hell as you are.

Right. There is NO way creationists will ever accept true science.

961 posted on 02/09/2005 6:06:11 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: js1138

Uh huh, but individuals don't count in evolution, only populations.

Do you think that chimp/human mating has produced creationists? ;-)


962 posted on 02/09/2005 6:07:11 AM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: Jaysun

Are you saying you never visit the creationists' websites?


963 posted on 02/09/2005 6:09:14 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Theo
Forget it. Your continuous ridiculing of God and His design have gotten too tiring. I suppose your contention is that God either doesn't exist, is a bad designer, or is not sovereign. This perverted worldview of yours affects how you interpret things, as demonstrated in this and many of your posts.

I have never ridiculed God. And your calling my religion perverted is very Christian of you.

964 posted on 02/09/2005 6:12:29 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: shubi
If you stake your faith on the absence of abiogenesis, you might end up like the flat earthers.

If you fail to stand up to the conventional wisdom of your peers you will never be a great scientist.

965 posted on 02/09/2005 6:13:04 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Jaysun
It's subject to different opinions, and nobody can really claim that his beliefs are the only ones that are correct. It can't be tested and confirmed. Please tell me that you recognize religious faith and scientific fact as two different things.

But you call mine perverted. Please tell me that you recognize religious faith and scientific fact as two different things.

966 posted on 02/09/2005 6:15:15 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: shubi
Uh huh, but individuals don't count in evolution, only populations.

That's true when the changes are just allele changes. It's also true when genes are inserted or copied within existing chromosomes. But somewhere along the line, chromosomes are duplicated or fused or whatever, changing the count. Otherwise, common descent is invalid.

There are (at least) two possible scenerios when this happens: one is that it happens frequently enough within a population that the "new" types find mates; the second possibility is that sometimes this just isn't an absolute barrier to reproduction.

967 posted on 02/09/2005 6:15:58 AM PST by js1138
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To: shubi

I haven't found a good one yet but this might be a start (fairly technical, depending on your bio background).

It's just plants. I'll try to do more later today but I'm off to work now.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/glossary/gloss6/index.html


968 posted on 02/09/2005 6:17:35 AM PST by From many - one. (formerly e p1uribus unum)
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To: Tribune7

I don't get your point.

What you said is true, but it tends to support my point that blind faith will come back to bite you.

For instance, one reason the creationists can never come up with a peer reviewed paper on evolution is they have preconceived notions that there is no such thing.


969 posted on 02/09/2005 6:17:35 AM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: shubi; Stultis
Yes, creationism is a recent cult. That is why I get so outraged that they claim to be the only true Bible followers. They have no tradition except one of ignorance.

So, in terms of the authenticity of its "tradition," creationism has as much credibility as Kwanzaa.

970 posted on 02/09/2005 6:20:41 AM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Jaysun
Splendid! Thanks for dishing up the first straight answer I've gotten all day. Can you tell me where or how I can gain access to some data on this? I'd like to check into this further.

It's hard to take someone seriously when their first post on the thread is:

I bet the first whale that jumped on the beach and suddenly started breathing air only did so to get away from all of his pals and their cruel jokes about his freakish half hippo appearance.

971 posted on 02/09/2005 6:22:03 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Tribune7
For many that's the point of the debate -- you believe, or want to believe, that the existence of God is impossible so you want that established as conventional wisdom.

Quite to the contrary, I fervently want to believe in God but since there is no evidence whatsoever of his existence and much to suggest otherwise, I don't. Sorry that I don't conform to your silly stereotype.

My statement was conditional, and included both alternatives. If I were making a definitive statement I would've began: In fact, I personally think that since abiogenesis is the ultimate origin of life on earth...

Well, it would actually since the modern thesis demands a common ancestor.

Well, no, it really, actually wouldn't. The "modern thesis" is not a religious dogma fantasized irrationally out of the ether. It is a compiled scientific paradigm established by the overwhelming evidence of common descent. The reason that the "modern thesis" is the modern thesis is simply because every form of life we've discovered clearly evidences a descent common with every other known form of life. If we uncovered some terrestrial life form that evidenced an origin apart from this common lineage, it would not even remotely undermine the scientific evidence of common descent for every other known form of life.

The modern thesis "demands" nothing aside that it account for all the scientific evidence. If the evidence changes, the thesis will change accordingly. Religion has its own separate rules so try not to confuse the two.

What evidence would it take for you to believe in God?

Evidence of his existence, as opposed to conjecture about the unexplained.

972 posted on 02/09/2005 6:24:10 AM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: shubi
What you said is true, but it tends to support my point that blind faith will come back to bite you.

Blind faith works both ways. Abiogenesis -- to put it mildly -- is not established. What if it weren't true despite the expectations of many? Many believe it possible that everything can come into existence by undirected means. What if they are wrong? Shouldn't someone try to point that out to them?

For instance, one reason the creationists can never come up with a peer reviewed paper on evolution is they have preconceived notions that there is no such thing.

I don't know how narrowly you are defining "creationist". Since you believe in a "creator" to me you would be a "creationist".

Now the IDers aren't arguing "young earth" or even rejecting evolution -- Behe, IIRCl, has said he accepts common descent.

And of course the IDers are getting published. Why one was just published in the "Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington". Of course the editor was then promptly fired , which may explain why they aren't published a lot.

973 posted on 02/09/2005 6:28:20 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: AntiGuv
. . .fervently want to believe in God but since there is no evidence whatsoever of his existence

There is far more evidence of God than of accident.

974 posted on 02/09/2005 6:30:50 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: All

of to work.


975 posted on 02/09/2005 6:32:28 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7

I don't believe in accident. I believe that if every factor were known the entire universe and its entire history past, present, and future could be plotted out on a graph.


976 posted on 02/09/2005 6:34:01 AM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
So why are the extremely long odds of evolution from chimp to human not as ridiculous as the supposed long odds of a bunch of modern animals being infected by the same virus?

The myth that a human baby popped out of a chimp is a myth, not part of evolution.

977 posted on 02/09/2005 6:35:04 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: AntiGuv
Evidence of his existence, as opposed to conjecture about the unexplained.

Perhaps we should be careful not to conflate God with what men say about God.

978 posted on 02/09/2005 6:39:54 AM PST by js1138
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To: Tribune7
And of course the IDers are getting published.

Actually there are some ICR folks who get published. I've looked up some of their articles. Of course their published articles are mainstream science with mainstream conclusions (usually as one of several co-authors).

So my question has been and remains, what is the ID research program?

979 posted on 02/09/2005 6:44:27 AM PST by js1138
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To: Tribune7
What if they are wrong?

What if you are wrong?

980 posted on 02/09/2005 6:44:27 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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