Scientists find missing link between whale and its closest relative, the hippo

UC Berkeley News ^ | 24 January 2005 | Robert Sanders, Media Relations

[shubi]

Why would you need to have faith in a god that shows himself?

On the other hand, the Hebrews followed a pillar of fire and still decided the golden calf was worship-able.

[shubi]

"I also get a bit chafed at punishing trillions of bunnies with terror and violent death for the momentary disobedience of a couple of -- what amounts to -- children. I have trouble with these stories even as parables."

The bunny hypothesis! ;-)

I really have trouble figuring out what spiritual lesson we should draw from the Noah tale. It reminds me of a German Stuble-Peter story.

[King Prout]

relating to Genesis 9:12-17, IIRC

well, it struck me that if indeed that was the very first rainbow, EVER, then God must have universally changed something rather radical.

Either the nature of water as a translucent medium, or the nature of light pertaining to the way different wavelengths pass through a given medium at different velocities, or the very spectrum of the light emitted by Sol.

Hypothesis: ANY SUCH CHANGE MUST HAVE HAD OTHER EFFECTS AS A CONSEQUENCE.

Water passes light as a consequence of its physical properties
Photons of different wavelengths pass through media at different velocities due to their physical properties
Sol emits the spectrum it does due to the physical nature of the fusion processes ongoing in its core, the trace elements generated and excited to incandescence, its mass, and the gravitic and electromagnetic forces containing the reaction.

Changing any of the above would have other consequences in addition to making a pretty flag in the sky. Those consequences, it seems to me, could be rather dramatic and would have left a record in the physical universe - a rather obvious one.

I don't know enough about water, light, or light generation as a result of fusion to pursue this farther, but I know enough science to KNOW that Genesis makes a scientifically testable prediction in that chapter and verse.

I suspect that testing would shatter the prediction, and thus discredit the "factuality" of Genesis utterly.

[WildTurkey]

This doesn't work with the Bible thumpers. They say that just because it is the first mention, doesn't mean there were no rainbows earlier.

[King Prout]

I'm gonna go Irish on ye: why would I bother to force myself to have faith in a god that never shows himself?

[King Prout]

but... but.... but...

it SAYS, right there in text, that God created the rainbow then and there as a sign of the covenant!

[js1138]

ANY SUCH CHANGE MUST HAVE HAD OTHER EFFECTS AS A CONSEQUENCE.

Now that's a genuine contribution to thought. I really don't pay much attention to Flood story geology and the arguments about it, but the First Rainbow Theory holds water.

[Junior]

At it's most fundamental, the Noah myth basically says, "listen to God and everything will turn out all right."

[shubi]

Probably a mistranslation. Created can often mean "made".

[shubi]

That is what the Gospel is about. God came down in human form for us.

That is not the same as having a god that goes to the pub and carouses with you.

That is the whole point of doubting Thomas.

[King Prout]

it would have to be more than a simple single-word mistranslation - it goes on for six verses, repeatedly emphasizing that this "bow" is a NEW THING.

[shubi]

But afterward God promised not to do that again, so why should anyone listen?

[King Prout]

nope, sorry - that's apocryphal testimony.
some book SAYS a thing.
I can't test it.
The stakes are too high for that to suffice.

[shubi]

"this "bow" is a NEW THING."

I don't think that is certain.

The verb is translated make as I thought. It is nathan not bara. It also says it is a "token" or "symbol" of the covenant.

I don't think there is much to the rainbow being created as a new thing in this verse (Gen 9:11)

[shubi]

I am not trying to convert you. Relax. ;-)

I was merely responding with standard Christian theology to your doubt about a god revealing himself would make him not much of a god.

[shubi]

http://www.struwwelpeter.com/SP/daumen3.html

I got the German spelling wrong. The link is to the gross series of children's stories I was talking about:
Struwwelpeter

[King Prout]

thanks. let me know if it leads you anywhere interesting.

[King Prout]

Gen9:
13-I *do* set my bow in the cloud, and it *shall* be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14-And it *shall* come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow *shall* be seen in the cloud.

present and future tenses. no indicators of past presence of the rainbow or a rededication of an extant phenomenon. all indicators point to a new thing.

[King Prout]

my standard response to standard Christian theology:

---

TRIAL

You awaken to find yourself lying alone on the Astroturf of the New Orleans Superdome, with no memory of any life prior to that point, stark naked and bound by a length of chain, attached hobble-like to both of your ankles, to a very large and ominous looking machine. The chain enters the bowels of this machine through an inch wide gap between two ten-foot long, three-foot diameter, toothed steel rollers. These rollers are idle at the moment, but the machine is humming with malevolent promise.

You remember no particulars of your life prior to awakening.

You look about, and notice that each of the 50,000 seats in the stadium is occupied by some sort of speaker or radio. All are silent at the moment. Indeed, the silence in the giant arena is stifling.

You roll to your feet, and test the strength of the chain. It is invulnerable to your efforts, resists all attempts to detach it from your legs, and is only long enough to permit you to move twenty feet from the humming ominous machine.

A voice speaks over the Public Address System. It says:
“You are being tried. You are required to identify, memorize, and adopt as your core principle of life The Message. Your time limit is the length of your chain. Most of its length shall be drawn into the machine in slow increments, but there is a randomizer chip in its control module which will at times speed up the rate, and might in fact cause the machine to draw in the entire remaining length all at once. You have approximately 24 hours to accomplish your task, but it may very well turn out to be far less time than that, so do not get comfortable. If you succeed, you will be set free. If you fail, you will be slowly crushed to death between the toothed rollers in excruciating torment. Your trial begins NOW.”

At the moment that last word shivers out of the air, the rolling press grinds into motion, and every one of those fifty thousands of radios wakes to cacophonous life.

Each of these radios or speakers is tuned to a different station, each plays at a different volume, many are in unknown languages, some are filled with static, and most are inaudible due to distance and the bedlam of the competition of its fellows. None that can be heard and deciphered say anything which clearly marks it as carrying The Message, except for unsupported claims of doing so, which they all seem to say, each with equal verification and support – in other words: None.

The chain begins to feed into the machine through the toothed rollers. You are already quite certainly running out of time.

*****

You are limited to the Given in any answer you give, or you demonstrate a failure in logic.
I want you to answer this question and ONLY this question:

Do you consider what is described above to be a fair test?

---

Do you get the impression that I have given the matter too much thought for childish word games to have any value in my eyes?

[King Prout]

correction: Christian and any other theology trying to pass semantics off as Reason.