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To: Joe Bonforte; cookcounty

I can understand your example, but it is strained if meant to show that self-organization can account for all of the intelligent design so evident in the universe. Consciousness of the overall program is not necessary for intelligent design to manifest itself, or for self-organization to take place. I would not ascribe consciousness to genetic material, but all the evidence points to processes, information, and communication that cannot take place without both intelligence and design.


410 posted on 02/05/2005 9:38:52 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I can understand your example, but it is strained if meant to show that self-organization can account for all of the intelligent design so evident in the universe.

That example is from economics, which relies heavily upon complex, self-organizing systems. Classic economics from Smith through Ricardo through Hayek to Friedman clearly concludes that a designed system (e.g. socialism) can never compete with a self-organized system (which in practice always means a free market). This is not meant to apply to the entire universe, but it does show that evolutionary concepts are influential and valid beyond biology. (I would like to presume that you are a believer in the self-organizing system of the free market instead of designed, command-and-control economic systems, yes?)

I would not ascribe consciousness to genetic material, but all the evidence points to processes, information, and communication that cannot take place without both intelligence and design.

You may believe that if you wish. But all you're really saying is "I don't see how these processes, information, and communication could take place without intelligence and design". Just because you can't see how it's possible doesn't mean it isn't possible.

If you really study the field of self-organizing systems, you will be astonished how complex systems can evolve from unconscious and dumb parts. For example, the engineers have created systems of small, dumb robots with very simple rules for behavior, and the ability to sense their immediate surroundings, and then turned them loose. The resulting complex behavior of the group was never designed. It's what's called an "emergent property".

Now, you're going to say, "But, but, the robots were designed", and thereby miss the point. The group behavior (i.e. the characteristics of the overall system) were never designed. They just popped up. And that shows the power of self-organizing systems, which is only a small part of the engine of evolution.

432 posted on 02/05/2005 9:59:37 PM PST by Joe Bonforte
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Consciousness of the overall program is not necessary for intelligent design to manifest itself...

This is actually an interesting statement. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate. How does intelligent design work in the absence of omniscience? How, for example, would you design a new life form without complete knowledge of the ecosystem in which it will live? How would you design it with foreknowledge of all the emergent properties of its genome?

Just curious.

526 posted on 02/06/2005 9:12:04 AM PST by js1138
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I can understand your example, but it is strained if meant to show that self-organization can account for all of the intelligent design so evident in the universe.

At one time it strained the mind to consider that the earth revolved around the sun when we felt no motion and could see the sun move across the sky.

At one time it strained the mind to think that airplanes could fly without angels holding them up.

At one time it strained the mind to believe man could travel faster than the speed of sound without tearing his body apart.

That is the problem. For some straining the brain is too painful and they return to their ignorance.

529 posted on 02/06/2005 9:32:00 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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