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Turin shroud 'older than thought'
BBC ^ | 1/26/2005

Posted on 01/26/2005 7:31:12 PM PST by ArcLight

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To: smonk
Really...

1351 - Shroud first shown in Lirey, France, to close family and frinds of Geoffrey de Charny. De Charny endows a church to house his posession which opens in 1355. Shroud is shown again and then secreted away in the altar.

April 14, 1452 - Leonardo da Vinci born

41 posted on 01/26/2005 10:04:47 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker
yeah, I got there, too.

even giving their argument maximum benefit of the doubt, the shroud definitely existed at most a year after da vinci was born.

42 posted on 01/26/2005 10:08:07 PM PST by smonk
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To: Swordmaker
he also invented a time machine just to throw off suspicions.
43 posted on 01/26/2005 10:08:28 PM PST by proust
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To: proust
---he also invented a time machine just to throw off suspicions.---

LOL!

44 posted on 01/26/2005 10:10:15 PM PST by smonk
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To: smonk
why the heck didn't they check against such a glaring anachronism?

Well, the two guys who wrote and sold a book based on the Da Vinci theory were historically challenged. On the other hand, they were aware of the date discrepency, They decided that the Lirey shroud was a poor fake and that da Vinci surrupticiously replaced the bad fake with a good fake(!) and no one noticed the substitution.

Another novel (in the fictional meaning) is that the image on the Shroud IS the shroud of a dead man... but not Jesus. They say it is Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar who was executed along with another Templar... one Geoffrey de Charney (note the almost identical spelling) Lodge Master of the Paris Temple. The fly in this particular ointment is that both men were burned at the stake... and left no body to be covered by a shroud.

However, the connection and the similarity in names, leads to a well thought of theory that the Shroud was in the posession of the Knights Templar since they looted it in the eleventh Century when it was last reported as being in the inventory of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople before the knights of the fourth crusade burned and sacked the city.

It is a logical conclusion that Geoffrey de Charny and Geoffrey de Charney might be grandson and grandfather and that the Shroud was handed down in the family.

45 posted on 01/26/2005 10:18:07 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Plutarch
Books are great... but go to the best source...

Barrie Schworz's Shroud of Turin Web Site.

Another good source is Freeper Shroudie's Shroudstory

46 posted on 01/26/2005 10:25:36 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker

thanks for straightening that one out for me. I won't ever assume that national geographic knows what the hell it's talking about ever again.


47 posted on 01/26/2005 10:26:20 PM PST by smonk
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To: ArcLight
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

Wow, without any scientific training or experiments, I had it pegged at between 400 and 3,000 years old - I was pretty close! Do I get a prize?

48 posted on 01/26/2005 10:29:49 PM PST by HitmanLV (HitmanNY has a brand new Blog!! Please Visit! - http://www.goldust.com/weblog -)
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To: Antoninus

That is just Catholic sophistry. People worship the shroud and other relics.


49 posted on 01/26/2005 10:39:43 PM PST by Soliton (Alone with everyone else.)
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To: Plutarch
Can you recommend a good recent book (or books) on the subject

There is a new book I haven't read yet that is recent: "The Shroud of Turin" by C. Bernard Ruffin - that looks promising. (Most of the books I have are out of print.)But there are several good on line sites that keep pretty well up to date. http://www.shroud.com/bstsmain.htm

http://www.nhne.com/articles/sashroud.html

http://shroudofjesus.com/

http://www.nhne.com/articles/sashroud.html

http://www.nhne.com/articles/sashroud.html

Have fun - it is very intriguing and may "speak" to the part of you who 'knows'

50 posted on 01/26/2005 11:31:00 PM PST by maine-iac7 (...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Lincoln)
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To: Marauder

"Wouldn't that have affected the results?"

Absolutely. So will "bioplastic" a film of organic matter laid down over a surface like cloth over centuries which incorporates more recent carbon into the test samples.


51 posted on 01/26/2005 11:35:57 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Soliton

Curious observation. Are you Muslim???

This is hardly a graven image. Its an historical artifact.


52 posted on 01/26/2005 11:37:59 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Swordmaker

A compounding of errors - soot, sampling method and bioplastic.


53 posted on 01/26/2005 11:39:26 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: smonk

Since even the radiocarbon testing indicates the shroud is older than DaVinci, that seems to make little sense to me.

Maybe National Geographic should stick to debunking alllegations that Mohammad was a pedophile.


54 posted on 01/26/2005 11:41:09 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Swordmaker

"However, the connection and the similarity in names, leads to a well thought of theory that the Shroud was in the posession of the Knights Templar since they looted it in the eleventh Century when it was last reported as being in the inventory of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople before the knights of the fourth crusade burned and sacked the city."

I agree with you.


55 posted on 01/26/2005 11:42:51 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: Soliton

I'm not a Catholic, but Catholics don't WORSHIP anyone but God. They VENERATE the Shroud.

A real distinction. Veneration is not worship.


56 posted on 01/26/2005 11:44:24 PM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: ZULU
A compounding of errors - soot, sampling method and bioplastic.

soot was cleand. bioplastic would have to outweigh original material 2 to 1.. that leaves sampling error... and that is what has now been conclusively proved. The sample was not the same as the rest of the Shroud.

57 posted on 01/27/2005 12:09:12 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Soliton
That is just Catholic sophistry. People worship the shroud and other relics.

No, we don't. Worship and veneration are two totally different things. Worship is due only to God. Even men may be worthy of veneration. If you can't understand the difference between the two, I'm afraid I can't help you.
58 posted on 01/27/2005 7:32:47 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc sign, vinces †)
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To: Soliton
{That is just Catholic sophistry. People worship the shroud and other relics.}

If a Catholic worships the shroud or other relics they do so in complete opposition to Catholic dogma. A Catholic, like all Christian religions, can worship only God. It would be a great heresy to do otherwise.

Godspeed, The Dilg
59 posted on 01/27/2005 11:07:07 AM PST by thedilg
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To: ZULU
---Since even the radiocarbon testing indicates the shroud is older than DaVinci, that seems to make little sense to me. Maybe National Geographic should stick to debunking alllegations that Mohammad was a pedophile.---

indeed. I'm just glad I went ahead and sent the post about the NG special - I very nearly didn't - so I could be disabused.

before my fellow freeper pointed out the brazen and glaring anachronism, I vaguely took it for granted that there must be at least a kernel of substance to the Da Vinci angle.

60 posted on 01/27/2005 12:07:53 PM PST by smonk
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