Posted on 01/13/2005 8:10:49 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
(AGI) - Vatican City, 12 Jan - The Pope commented today on the Apocalypse before the 7,000 people attending the General Papal Audience today in the Nervi Hall, indicating that the fight between good and evil, personified by Satan, is a very hard one, as shown by the manifold violence and injustice in the world today, however the outcome is certain, evil will be vanquished. Pope John Paul II explained, "God and the Lamb, Christ, surrounded by the 'Council of the Crown', are judging human history in good and evil, but showing us however the ultimate end in salvation and glory. The songs which are found in the Apocalypse and which serve to illustrate the issue of divine glory which regulates the flux, often disconcerting, of the tide of human events". Of great significance is the first part of the hymn intoned by the 24 ancients who seem to incarnate the chosen people in their two historic stages, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles of the Church. The Pope continued, Satan, the original adversary, who accused our brothers in the heavenly court, has now been cast down from heaven and therefore no longer has great power. He knows he has not much time left because history is about to see a radical turning point in freedom from evil and therefore he is reacting full of great fury. And then the resurrected Christ will rise up, whose blood is the principle of salvation and who received from the Father royal power over the entire universe, in Him are centred salvation, strength and the kingdom of our God. In his victory are associated the Christian martyrs who chose the path of the cross, not yielding to evil and it virulence, but delivering themselves to the Father and uniting themselves to the death of Christ by means of a testimony of donation and courage which brought them to give up life in order to die". He concluded, "the words of the Apocalypse regarding those who have vanquished Satan and evil through the blood of the Lamb, echo also in the splendid prayer attributed to the Christian martyr Simeon, from Seleucia-Ctesifonte in Persia, 'I will receive life without pain, worry, anguish, persecutor, persecuted, oppressor, oppressed, tyrant or victim, there I will see no threat of king, or terror of prefects, no-one will quote me in court or terrorise me and no-one will drag me or scare me". (AGI) . 121425 GEN 05
Doesn't that depend on how you define losing? if he drags as many souls to hell as possible, will he not count that a victory ?
I think we're getting offcourse. No one's saying we shouldn't be proactive against terrorism. At least not from our vantage point. I'm certainly not a pacifist. I think, however, that with regards to the Church teaching on "just war" we have to be careful not to open up a Pandora's box. Hindsight is 20/20, but I wonder how many believe we made a mistake by blockading Cuba instead of starting a nuclear war with the Soviets during the missile crisis. The war in Iraq is a lot trickier, and the Pope certainly isn't speaking with infallibility when he or one of his associates is opining on Iraq, but we would do well to consider their reasoning - not necessarily agree - but explore the ramifications in totality before going to war.
Now, that said, I believe we did explore the ramifications completely. I believe the opinion of the Vatican is wrong on this. It's not a matter of faith, but it's a matter of conscience.
"Here is a nice example of religious appeals to serve a secular project. That Mr. Davies had a genuine horror of popery I have no doubt. But it’s telling that in extolling the “blessings of liberty” he makes it quite clear that he means British Liberty – from which, as you may know, Catholics at the time were constitutionally disqualified by the Penal Laws." ~ Romulus
On the contrary. America's founders - the Framers of our founding documents - came to America primarily for religious freedom. They were fleeing the tyranny of both church and the state [both "top-down" style governments] in Europe.
The founders of the United States of America believed that all men were
created with equal authority. Thus they declared the following principle as
the foundation of their political union. They said:
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to
secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
The founders also believed that this concept of equal authority was taught
in the Bible. They used Sir Walter Blackstone’s Commentary on Law to
explain and illustrate this Biblical concept. The following is from
Blackstone's "Commentary on Law" concerning the equality of mankind at
creation:
"If man were to live in a state of nature, unconnected with other
individuals, there would be no occasion for any other laws, than the law of
nature, and the law of God. Neither could any other law possibly exist; for
a law always supposes some superior who is to make it; and in a state of
nature we are all equal, without any other superior but him who is also the
author of our being."
This phrase "law of nature" was explained by Blackstone a little earlier in
his "Commentary on Law" in the following manner:
"This law of nature, being coeval with mankind and dictated by God himself,
is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all
the globe in all countries, and at all times; no human laws are of any
validity, if contrary to this: and such of them as are valid derive all
their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this
original."
The founders identified the 13 colonies of their union as "Free
Protestant". As Protestants, their Declaration in 1776 that "all men are
created equal (in authority) " was consistent with the doctrine of their
founder, the man who first openly protested the hierarchy of men (the pope
and priests in the Roman Chatholic Church) over Christians. His name was
Martin Luther. He was a Roman Catholic priest from Germany who began the
"Protestant Reformation". He stated the following:
"I say, then, neither pope, nor bishop, nor any man whatever has the right
of making one syllable binding on a Christian man, unless it be done with
his own consent. Whatever is done otherwise is done in the spirit of
tyranny...I cry aloud on behalf of liberty and conscience, and I proclaim
with confidence that no kind of law can with any justice be imposed on
Christians, except so far as they themselves will; for we are free from all."
As Protestant Christians, the founders believed that all Christians were in
a covenant relationship with God the Father made possible through Jesus
Christ. Because of that covenant, they felt that every Christian was
obligated to follow at least the minimum of God 's Revealed Will (THE TEN
COMMANDMENTS) found in His Holy printed Word. This belief was to be the
foundation for order in all communities in America. This belief that God
revealed his will directly to all believers regardless of sex was later
known by the Free Protestants who came to America in 1620 as the
"Priesthood of the Believer".
By accepting God's precepts as the standard for their consciences, they
believed that God alone gave them liberty. Because dictionaries did not
exist at the time of the Declaration of Independence, the only way one
could determine how Liberty in America was defined both religiously and
politically was to look at the only religious source that was to be
accepted by all free Protestants. Once that source was determined and an
examination of the political documents that had been written at that time
had been made, it was a very simple task to determine how the founders
applied their religious liberty politically. The only religious book at
that time was the "The King James Version" of the Bible.
Let us see how Liberty is defined in this version of the Holy Scriptures.
It is found in Psalms 119:45 :
"And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."
Because the founders were "free Protestant" concerning their view of the
Gospel and how it was to be spread in the world, they adopted a form of
political union for their colonies that was taken from the Old World. It
was not inconsistent with their religious views concerning associations.
The type of political Union that was adopted by the first colonies in
America was the "Confederation". This type of union allowed them to unite
as a single union FOR SECURITY but allowed them to retain their right of
sovereignty as Christians and their right of sovereignty to exist as 'free
Protestant" colonies.
The first Confederation was formed in 1643. As we examine a portion of
their Charter , we can gain a clear view of how they viewed their religious
liberty politically. Again because there were no dictionaries at that time,
this is the only source to see how liberty was view in America. It proves
beyond the shadow of a doubt that they continued the belief of the pilgrims
identifying God not man as the author and giver of their liberties. The
following portion in that Charter clearly reflects the purpose of the
American Confederation and souce of their Liberties. This, by the way is
the same Confederation that fought the Revolutionary War:
Whereas we all came into these parts of America with one and the same end
and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to
enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity with peace;
For our founders, one man’s liberty did not rest upon another man’s
conscience. Each citizen had the right to program his conscience according
to the standards he felt were true and to live his life as his conscience
dictated in his pursuit for happiness. Again Blackstone speaks on the
subject of pursuing happiness.
"For he (God) has so intimately connected, so inseparably inter-woven the
laws of eternal justice with the happiness of each individual that the
latter cannot be attained but by observing the former; and, if the former
be punctually obeyed, it cannnot but induce the latter."
They believed that God gave life to all men and with that life the
opportunity to follow him. As believers, they believed that they had a
responsibility to protect the lives and liberties of their fellow Americans
against all tyranny and that each citizen should have the right as a priest
to pursue happiness according to the dictates of his own conscience.
"League of Friendship" identified the religious and political principles
that were in their Confederation as colonies. Those same principles are
identified when they again refer to their Confederation of free States as
a"League of Friendship" (see Articles of the Confederation). As Christians,
they defined the obligation of their sacred friendship in the following
manner. In John 15:13 of the New Testament, Jesus made this statement to
his followers:
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his
friends."
Those founders considered the cost of belonging to the Union that they had
created and determined that the treasure for their children was well worth
the price. Thus they asked God for the following condition as they pledged
their support to one another to protect the Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit
of Happiness of their fellow Americans. They asked God to keep them honest
by holding them accountable for what they were about to pledge. They then
pledged the following:
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world
for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the authority
of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare:
That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and
Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the
British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State
of Great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and
Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace,
contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things
which Independent States may of right do.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the
protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
INTRODUCTION TO THE LIBERTY PRINCIPLES IN AMERICAN POLITICS
by Stephen L. Corrigan - http://w3.one.net/~stephenc/fun.html
The angel called her "full of grace". Man was cut off from grace at the fall of Adam because of the stain of original sin. Grace was not returned to those stained with original sin until the Crucifixion and subsequent release of the prisoners from the "bosom" of Abraham.
To refer to Mary as "full of grace" has no possible implication but that she did not carry the stain of Original Sin - she was saved by Christ before time, and set aside to be the vessel - the ark of the covenant - to carry Him in her womb.
We are miscommunicating. When you said "it", I thought you meant the Bible. Instead you were referring to a book long link which I still haven't fully read. I haven't figured out how your link's "reformed amillenialism" differs from "plain vanilla amillenialism".
If you believe that the second coming is yet to occur, then obviously you believe that parts of Revelations are in the future, and I'm unclear what we are arguing about here.
Your link interprets the ressurrection to be synomynous with salvation. I don't think so. The following passage seems to discuss a moment in time, in which the dead in Christ rise first, followed by alive believers being caught up in the air. The term "dead in Christ" doesn't seem to make sense in your construct.
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Exactly. Just like the rest of his people are. [Romans 8:28-30; 9:11-13; Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4-6 etc., etc.]
We are blessed with a Pope who, even in his dotage, may be the wisest and most courageous man on earth.
If you think that is what we are doing in Iraq, it's probably only one of a thousand reasons why you are not Pope.
We were not saved before time. That's predestination.
Mary, however, was specifically set aside to give birth to and raise the Messiah. She was "full of grace". It didn't mean she had great table manners. It meant she was imbued with purity of heart and soul - unstained by sin.
We were not saved before time. That's predestination.
Mary, however, was specifically set aside to give birth to and raise the Messiah. She was "full of grace". It didn't mean she had great table manners. It meant she was imbued with purity of heart and soul - unstained by sin.
Could you please explain exactly what Paul was telling us in Ephesians 1????
That's a thousand years, dammit, not a thousand anuses ...
I agree, we all need to sit up and take notice. The Pope has never talked like this, at least I don't remember him saying thing;s like this in the past.
Because she was born without Original Sin doesn't mean she wasn't born of the flesh. Adam was brought from the earth. He was of the flesh. He did not have a spiritual body, either, but he was free of sin until the fall...
Wow, thanks. Just like me to miss the announcement.
oops- that was the title to Hannity's new book
No problem. Always glad to help.
MM
Just curious, what is your opinion of President Bush?
I have just read that they believe that Mary was without sin.
Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
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