or the classic?
Posted on 01/11/2005 3:34:26 PM PST by kcvl
Anyone else hear it?
I look fowarded to your hippos..
Infamy?
We are Bigtime
I got so excited that it didn't cross my mind until later. I'll be up for the replay.
Because we have been doing this for so long, a lot of us "oldtimers" were stunned that something we actually said online took off like the CBS memo thing did. I was frankly blown away.
The FNC on air talent has to be careful in the current climate. If any of them endorses what we say too strongly and then the MSM find some loony poster (most likely a troll trying to cause trouble) to quote making us look bad it spills over on FNC and might even be used to defend CBS.
"See! See! Brit Hume says this all came from Freerepublic and this post here proves that they are nut jobs or racists or radical anti-government kooks, therefore Dan Rather is INNOCENT and CBS is the REAL VICTIM of a VRWC!!!!!!!!!"
Walking on egg shells is, unfortunately, part of territory right now.
The TRUTH about Abu Ghraib is that the people in the "cheerleader pile" had just been unclothed because they had started a RIOT. They took their clothes away to keep them from FIGHTING. They put bags over their heads to keep them confused. They put them in a "cheerleader pile" to control them. The guy being interviewed by Paula Zhan was VERY SERIOUS about what he was describing. He convinced me that it was neccessary to do what the guards did to keep them from a RIOT!
I'll see if I can find the interview.
******
Ms. Mapes is also responsible for CBS's reporting on the Abu Ghraib pictures, a story she helped break. According to TV reporter Gail Shister, "The scoop was the result of more than two months' legwork by 60 II producer Mary Mapes." In an interview with Charlie Rose, Mapes described how hard she worked to find the incriminating pictures:
"We ended up chasing it, chasing it halfway around the world and back again. Trying not just to chase the rumors of it, but---but to find out what the reality of it. And in the beginning, a lot of it was whispered accounts of pictures that existed somewhere, an investigation that was going somewhere against someone, and we were able luckily to narrow that down and get our hands on the pictures which really gave us our first real hard proof that this was real."
Oh really? Looks like it's time to revisit the Abu Ghraib Timeline. Some highlights (note: additional links in original):
Dec 03 (implied various sources): A soldier, recognizing the behavior at Abu Ghraib as criminal, reports it. Army CID investigates the allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib and establishes the case against most of the currently accused, including Army Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II.
Jan 14: SSG Frederick began writing his journal on Jan. 14, only a few hours after Army authorities fetched him for questioning and searched his quarters at 2:30 a.m. that day. He mailed copies to his mother, father, uncle and sister, and decided not to send it by e-mail for fear that the Army would see it first.
26 Jan CNN reports:
The U.S. military's criminal investigation into potential abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. soldiers at Abu Gharib prison in Iraq now includes reports from soldiers that military police took photographs showing soldiers hitting detainees, CNN has learned.
Earlier, several Pentagon officials who declined to be identified by name confirmed to CNN that investigators were looking into the reports -- all coming from fellow soldiers -- of photographs showing male and female detainees with some of their clothing removed.
Lets review: "..And in the beginning, a lot of it was whispered accounts of pictures that existed somewhere, an investigation that was going somewhere against someone,..."
Is the CNN report the whispered account? Bear in mind this is still three months before CBS broadcast Frederick's "home spun" porn collection.
Late Feb: A fifty-three-page report, the result of the January investigation (later obtained by The New Yorker), written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba was completed in late February.
20 March CNN reports:
Six U.S. soldiers have been charged with offenses related to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at an Iraqi prison, the U.S. Army said Saturday.
Multiple sources said the allegations involve soldiers who took photographs of Iraqi prisoners in late 2003, including pictures that show the prisoners partially clothed or physical contact between soldiers and detainees.
<...>
One source said "less than two dozen detainees" were subjected to the alleged abuse, which was reported by U.S. Army soldiers who witnessed it.
Note: The same CNN reporter has been following the story from the start. Time to toss that "whispers" part of the storyline into the category of "lies CBS has told in conjunction with memogate" But how did Ms. Mapes get her hands on the porn squad snaps?
Mar: SSg Frederick's uncle William sent an e-mail message to retired colonel David Hackworth's Web site. The NY Times describes Hackworth as "a retired colonel and a muckraker who was always willing to take on the military establishment." That e-mail message would put Mr. Lawson in touch with the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" and help set in motion events that led to the public disclosure of the graphic photographs and an international crisis for the Bush administration. The Times reports on 8 May:
The irony, Mr. Lawson said, is that the public spectacle might have been avoided if the military and the federal government had been responsive to his claims that his nephew was simply following orders. Mr. Lawson said he sent letters to 17 members of Congress about the case earlier this year, with virtually no response, and that he ultimately contacted Mr. Hackworth's Web site out of frustration, leading him to cooperate with a consultant for "60 Minutes II."
"The Army had the opportunity for this not to come out, not to be on 60 Minutes," he said. "But the Army decided to prosecute those six G.I.'s because they thought me and my family were a bunch of poor, dirt people who could not do anything about it. But unfortunately, that was not the case."
So according to the NY Times story, the suspect's uncle "cooperated with a consultant" to 60 Minutes II; investigative reporting at it's finest. I suspect that consultant was someone other than Ms Mapes, but I'll refrain from further speculation. There's an interesting issue of timing to evaluate:
On April 9th, an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury, in which evidence is presented, witnesses are called, and the decision to pursue court martial is made) in the case against Sergeant Frederick. In addition to a military lawyer, SSgt Frederick retains the services of Gary Myers, one of the military defense attorneys in the Vietnam-era My Lai case. After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial against Frederick.
Unknown date (14 Apr?): CBS obtains photos of prisoner abuse along with the Taguba report. Seymour Hersh, a writer who broke the story of the Vietnam-era My Lai case, also obtains a copy of the Taguba report.
At the Article 32 hearing, the prosecution would have presented the evidence in the case - the pictures, among other things. This suggests two possibilities:
1. This was the first time the photos had been returned to Frederick (and his legal team) after initial confiscation for the investigation. They immediately handed them to Frederick's uncle who contacted Hackworth who contacted CBS and ultimately the photos made it to 60 Minutes II and to Seymour Hersh - who in an amazing coincidence had an established relationship with the defense attorney.
or
2. The defense gave the prosecution a deadline (perhaps unspoken or merely hinted) to drop charges at the hearing; when their "expectations" weren't met they released the photos.
The Washington Post reports:
CBS News delayed for two weeks airing a report about U.S. soldiers' alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Gen. Richard B. Myers called CBS anchor Dan Rather eight days before the report was to air, asking for extra time, said Jeff Fager, (note: remember this name) executive producer of "60 Minutes II."
Myers cited the safety of Americans held hostage and tension surrounding the Iraqi city of Fallujah, Fager said, adding that he held off as long as he believed possible given it was a competitive story.
With the New Yorker magazine preparing to run a detailed report on the alleged abuses, CBS broadcast its report Wednesday, 28 April, including images taken last year allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by U.S. captors at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.
Let's revisit Mapes claim:
"The scoop was the result of more than two months' legwork by 60 II producer Mary Mapes." In an interview with Charlie Rose, Mapes described how hard she worked to find the incriminating pictures:
"We ended up chasing it, chasing it halfway around the world and back again. Trying not just to chase the rumors of it, but---but to find out what the reality of it. And in the beginning, a lot of it was whispered accounts of pictures that existed somewhere, an investigation that was going somewhere against someone, and we were able luckily to narrow that down and get our hands on the pictures which really gave us our first real hard proof that this was real."
Not sure how much world travel went on before the handover, but it certainly seems like much of that above quote can be addedto the rapidly growing list of "not quite correct comments" associated with the Rather Forgeries.
Sometimes, when you're in a hole, it's a good idea to quit digging.
Remember the name Fager? Here it comes again:
On April 28, "60 II" was first with the shocking photographs of Americans abusing Iraqi prisoners. The scoop was the result of more than two months' legwork by "60 II" producer Mary Mapes, Fager said.
"We knew we were sitting on a bombshell," he said. "None of us could have predicted the kind of impact it would have on the direction of the war, or that it would become a kind of symbol."
It certainly did - but CBS, rather than being the first to report, was merely the first to attempt to pass the buck up to the Pentagon and the White House, with illustrations. They were hoping that heads would roll. Credit where due: they were right on most counts. The war did change, and heads did indeed begin to roll, as has been noted here. But in the end, SSg Frederick couldn't be saved, his photos were undeniable evidence of his own crimes, their repeated broadcast evidence not of "60 Minutes greatness" but of nothing more than a twisted frenzy that sometimes poses as journalism in America, the denial of which is but one more sign of the fading of legacy media as an arbiter of truth.
Uncle Bill again: "...they thought me and my family were a bunch of poor, dirt people who could not do anything about it. But unfortunately, that was not the case."
He meant the Army, of course.
Since that day in April , Ivan Frederick sits in prison, the war goes on, and CBS makes news. Not sure exactly which result Team Rather is most proud of here.
Why does it matter now? The Opinion Journal reports on CBS's (specifically Jonathan Klein, a former executive vice president of CBS News) current defense of the Rather forgeries:
Mr. Klein didn't directly address the mounting objections to CBS's story. He fell back on what high school debaters call the appeal to authority, implying that the reputation of "60 Minutes" should be enough to dissolve doubts without the network sharing its methods with other journalists and experts. He told Fox's Tony Snow that the "60 Minutes" team is "the most careful news organization, certainly on television." He said that Mary Mapes, the producer of the story, was "a crack journalist" who had broken the Abu Ghraib prison abuse story.
There you have the state of mainstream American media 2004 - having a stack of damning photographs handed to you by the unwitting defendent in a criminal trial constitutes "crack journalism"
More from Jeff Fager:
Fager, ever loyal to the newsmagazine he launched in July '98, said "60 II" was the right venue for the prison-scandal story, despite "60's" larger audience.
"60 II" is not a minor-league player. It's an important, serious broadcast that has broken stories from the get-go, and will continue to do so.
Indeed. Thanks, and we will continue to watch.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:C4FMeUOMWgsJ:www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/001346.html+mary+mapes,+abu+gharib&hl=en
Bump. ( just so I can use my tagline)
Our first question of the memos was 19 minutes into the broadcast. Anyone who has a time stamped posting prior to that can claim our title.
I would BET, "BRIT" keeps a "Weather EYE" on FR,--because, "Once-in-a-While-" we "Stumble On" "The Truth!!"
I THINK, "BRET," gives us some "Slack," 'cause we REALLY ARE "Interested in" "THE TRUTH!!"
AT ANY RATE; it is a "High Honor" that the "Head Honcho of FOX NEWS" EVEN PAYS ATTENTION to us "Bloggers!"
AS FR has previously Noted; Mr Hume is the MOST CREDIBLE SOURCE of "News" on TV--BAR NONE!!"
Doc
Love your tagline MaeWest!
OMG. That gives me chills!
or the classic?
I do think we were first. I remember it being questioned during the broadcast.
It was just saying it is hard to prove such a thing beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Just wondering... do you have some kind of wacky cap lock feature on your keyboard?
Happy to say I saw it!
The first one.
You got it!
NAW; 'Just a Jerk!!"
Ahh. carry on.
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