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Grammar for Smarties("Why Oh Why" books' success prove we’re serious about the care of our language)
The American Prowler ^ | 1/11/2005 | Christopher Orlet

Posted on 01/10/2005 10:26:26 PM PST by nickcarraway

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To: nopardons; Graybeard58
At least once a week my youngest starts a dialogue with with, "Daddy, me and Jen..."

"TO WHOM DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SPEAKING, YOUNG LADY????"

"(sigh) Jen...and...I...are going to (wherever)..."

41 posted on 01/10/2005 11:19:56 PM PST by FreeKeys ("But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought." -- George Orwell)
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To: nickcarraway
Here's a great resource for grammar, English usage, literature, and just about anything to do with the English language:

Bartleby.com

It'll learn you good.

42 posted on 01/10/2005 11:21:16 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Graybeard58
You will see it - "irregardess"

That word appears in many dictionaries, by the way, because it's so commonly used.

43 posted on 01/10/2005 11:21:43 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: nopardons

The style of many periodicals was more formal half a century ago. Where the language lived was on the sports pages. I also enjoyed the Police Gazette. However, all that said, I think that if you go back and look at the old papers/Reader's Digest etc., you'd see the simplicity of the writing.


44 posted on 01/10/2005 11:22:24 PM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: nickcarraway
Yet despite all this talk of transformation the mother tongue has gone remarkably unchanged since the King James Version of the Bible began to stabilize the language in the mid-seventeenth century. Words come and go, yes, but a letter written 367 years ago by John Milton to Benedetto Bonomatthai reads much like one composed by a good writer today:

This is stupid. Go back 1000 years and english is unrecognizable. On the other hand, El Cid is readable in the original.

English is NOT a stable language.

45 posted on 01/10/2005 11:22:45 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Nations do not survive by setting examples for others. Nations survive by making examples of others)
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To: Petronski

Irregardless of what you think I is going to Walmarts and buy me a coke anyways. now I axe yas did I miss any?


46 posted on 01/10/2005 11:22:57 PM PST by rednekelmo
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To: k2blader

Not to mention writing "to" for "too" and making a mess of your/you're ,there/their and many others,besides the incorrect conjunction cockups. FR has examples of ALL of the very worst of the worst.Sometimes it's so depressing to read a thread and the replies.


47 posted on 01/10/2005 11:25:00 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons

What's wrong with it? Uh, my impression at the time was that the lessons were intended for the sole purpose of writing thank you notes and place cards for dinner parties. It's an actual "thing" they do in L.A., which is trying to duplicate what they perceive as a more gracious period in time. And, of course, they make a mess of it.


48 posted on 01/10/2005 11:26:31 PM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: FreeKeys
Oh gee.............. :-(

How old is your youngest?

49 posted on 01/10/2005 11:26:35 PM PST by nopardons
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To: Petronski

Does "friggin'" add value to our verb-rich language?


50 posted on 01/10/2005 11:27:06 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: k2blader
Incorrect contractions and homonyms irk me most.

Your right, its one of my pet peeves. [sic]

51 posted on 01/10/2005 11:27:20 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: nopardons
Except that now,some in the higher classes emulate the speech patterns of the lowest class.

It's most clear in Britain where Received Pronunciation (eg, Alistair Cooke, the Queen, Tony Blair) is dead -- no longer even taught at Oxford and Cambridge. And it's happened only in the last 20-25 years. It's been replaced by "Estuary English" which really sounds horrible to my ears. The best example of Estuary English pronunciation is Jamie Oliver. It hurts my ears to hear him. I can't stand it.

52 posted on 01/10/2005 11:27:36 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Petronski

Try "may" and "can", Petronski.

"May" denotes permission. While "Can" denotes ability.

Children and many adults know not the difference.

Jack.


53 posted on 01/10/2005 11:29:10 PM PST by Jack Deth (Knight Errant and Disemboweler of the WFTD Thread)
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To: Captainpaintball
Chomsky has been mislabelled for decades; he is NOT, nor ever has been, a ''linguist''; he was a pioneer in ''linguistics'', a discipline that **originally** and traditionally dealt with the study of the organisation of language.

A 'linguist', by definition, understands and uses the structure of X number of languages, presumably with a view toward furthering communication between speakers/writers of languages A and B. Or, perhaps, engages in other worthwhile endeavours, for example, translation of either historical documents or the straightforward translation from language to language in order to facilitate communication in the 'real' world. These aren't any part of Chomsky's CV, even though he is fluent in 5 (6?, sorry, can't recall just now) languages.

Chomsky's academic expertise, as published, deals with what are called ''formal grammars'', and has been quite useful in the development of computer languages -- a result, btw, that he did NOT anticipate. Chomsky, at his early best, was to language what Bertrand Russell was, at his early best, to formal logic.

I won't waste your time recounting the subsequent and unfortunate history of these two gents' psychopathy after they abandoned their respective fields of expertise, and at some point decided to make a subsidiary career by telling the rest of the world how to live.

Their wildly misplaced assumptions about their competence, and their subsequent insistence about expertising upon social and political issues resembles very strongly the similar phenomenon we see today of some number of alleged actors named Baldwin, as well as the occasional Streisand, who offer similar, although far, far less coherent, ''expertise''.

54 posted on 01/10/2005 11:29:45 PM PST by SAJ
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To: FreedomCalls

Damned shame, too, isn't it!


55 posted on 01/10/2005 11:30:52 PM PST by SAJ
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To: Petronski
When we look at the wrongs now fait accompli, all initiated in the name of doing good, public education has to be on the top of the list. We will never regain the English language until public education is dead and buried.

I imagine you and others will enjoy this:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html

I am not as certain as some of the rest of you regarding the immutability of language. I would actually be pleased if there were some changes to the average language policeman's law book. For instance, taking issue with improper uses of who/whom, that/which, and bring/take really seems a bit too persnickety in my book. Conversationally, I can't see people making these decisions easily while speaking on the fly, just as they do not do so in avoiding a preposition dangling at sentence's end. I do understand the need for precise language, but often English has already surrendered in areas I would never have waved the white flag.

Top of the list? The word "inflammable." Why does it mean flammable, too? Might as well have the words "competent" and "incompetent" mean the same thing! I want "inflammable" back meaning NOT flammable so that I know which bucket to pitch onto the fire!

I prefer not to carp on English errors, but I do know that if I were hiring an executive, the one who misspelled in his resume would not be getting the job were it one where he represented our company to the public.
56 posted on 01/10/2005 11:31:31 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile

Yes, public education, taxes, lawyers, Clinton, the unions and OSHA have all devolved our language to a series of grunts and snorts.


57 posted on 01/10/2005 11:33:43 PM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: Centurion2000
English is NOT a stable language.

Personally, I think a good argument can be made that English is a pidgin of Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Norman French with a smattering of Latin (including hunks of the grammar imported by smarty-pants academics that thought English should work more like Latin) and other languages. There is a reason why it has so many irregular forms (e.g., ox/oxen uses the Danish pluralization while horse/horses uses the Anglo-Saxon pluralization), why we pluralize many Latin words with Latin inflections rather than English inflections (e.g., data instead of datums), and why we've got at least two words for all sorts of things because we got one word via the Germanic language family and the other word from the French language family (e.g., chicken/poultry, big/large, etc.). Oh, and then there are the throwbacks to non-existant forms such as "a pair of pants". Ask anyone who has tried to learn English as a second language. It's really quite a mess.

58 posted on 01/10/2005 11:33:51 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: durasell
Forty years ago,the Daily News had THE best sports page,of any paper in N.Y.C.!Even 30 years ago,this was true and it was NOT written in a dumbed down way.

The writing was NOT as "simplified" as you claim. But let's take on books,shall we? And I'm talking now about "pop culture";not any "highbrow" stuff. "CANDY",which isn't exactly great lit,used better language than what is sloughed off on today's populace as "great" modern works of literature.

And if you go back a bit farther,just look at the brilliant use of English in "THE WOMEN";even the movie.

59 posted on 01/10/2005 11:35:03 PM PST by nopardons
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To: LibertarianInExile
Good policy. Keep the illiterates away from the clientele (g!).

More seriously, though, yours is -- in my humble view -- an excellent commentary, **particularly** the part about public (alleged) schools.

Well said, and FReegards!

60 posted on 01/10/2005 11:36:25 PM PST by SAJ
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