Posted on 01/05/2005 12:53:33 PM PST by Phantom Lord
I'm not trying to squash discussion, merely point out that, though there are complex political and moral questions, abortion is not one of them. Many issues have arguments on both sides; this one does not. The defenses of abortion are unique in that they have no logical validity whatsoever, and people on both sides know this.
I say this to say there is only one assumption that underlies the abortionist position, always, and that is: the baby is not a person.
The baby is not a person. That is the single, naked (and indefensible) assumption you are asking for.
So there are no assumptions, plural, there is only one. Anybody who wants to carry it off must: 1. define "person"; 2. describe the baby; 3. demonstrate how the products of conception lack the sine qua non quality of "person".
They can't do it and they HATE being asked to do it, because the mental pain of having to think it through is what they work, march, talk, and shout to avoid.
The entire abortionist position is one huge chunk of sophistry, designed to hide the awful truth: they believe in abortion for no other reason than that it is USEFUL. And what it is used FOR is to make casual sex risk-free. The baby is not a person (until some magical point) simply because they don't WANT to be responsible for it. It's not a moral argument; it is the same as when a 2 year old says "No. Nonononononono."
The rest, as I say, is sophistry.
/ rant
So you get to define what's an argument and what isn't also?
Are you a lawyer? : )
Me thinks Taliesan, Firebrand, and MHGinTN are the ones arguing.
Rant on.
I'll see you in another thread sometime.
Peace.
"Are you by any chance carrying a few extra pounds Longs?"
Nope, I'm not one of those fat bearded freepers that comes running out of their Ted Kacynscki log cabins just after they get their monitors wet, screaming and yelling about the latest article/picture of this blond bag of bones.
Are you one of them?
Peace.
I am sorry I insulted your personal hero/demigod. Clearly I struck a nerve. Do you sleep with the 10 inch Ann Coulter doll?
If you missed out on it for Christmas, go here- www.talkingpresidents.com
She's more like a stand-up comedian. But that's what people want nowadays. The problem is that she brings that stand-up, quick draw, shoot from the hip mentality into other people's more serious discussions.
How do you assume she didn't mean nuke the bomb factory? Just a small bunker penetrator would do a great job of education.
Are you one of them?"
Fat? No
FReeper? Yes
Beard? No
Log Cabin? No
Obsessed with Ann C.? No
I think you're a troll myself. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your characterization of FReepers gives me pause.
Yeah, whatever. A troll thats been here longer than you and participated in freeps during the 2000 election. Maybe you shouldnt go around insulting others if you can't take it in kind.
Don't bother responding. I don't care.
Yeah, whatever. A troll thats been here longer than you and participated in freeps during the 2000 election. Maybe you shouldnt go around insulting others if you can't take it in kind.
Don't bother responding. I don't care.
I'm not taking it personally LOngs. I merely responded to you saying "Hillary would smoke" Ann in a debate. On what do you base that position? Can you answer or will you continue to disparage FReepers and talk about who, or what, I sleep with?
"Oh well - I'm sure they -- and millions of Muslims -- probably feel that you & your family dying a horrible, painful burning radioactive death is 'inconsequential' too and would probably be 'fun' for them too."
You have captured it precisely. They indeed seek the slaughter of ANY non-believer as the only acceptible alternative to conversion. It is a matter of religious belief, and it makes Islam unique in the world in that respect.
The Islamic faith is the ONLY faith that calls for the slaughter of unbelievers. What is so deceptive about Islam is that there are two diametrically opposite philosophies contained within the same religion. Generally, they are referred to as "Mecca" and "Medina" Islam.
Mecca Islam is the more peaceful, tolerant, submissive side of Islam, and Mecca is the more stridant, militant, and frankly - dangerous - side of Islam. Mecca Islam shows a tolerance toward other 'people of the book', including of all people Jews. Medina calls for the slaughter or conversion of unbelievers. Christianity has the Old and the New Testaments, but one fulfills the other without contradicting it.
So, for not having any grounding in the Islamic faith, you quite succinctly capture the attitudes of Muslim countries like North Korean, and of late, Indonesia, toward the Great Satan and all other Christian nations.
I'll point out, once again, two things.
1. We are at war, real war with new rules called 'assymetry' - a style of war we didn't invent.
2. They started it, and when I say they, I'm not referring to Iraqis or Afghanis, I'm referring to Muslims.
If the Muslim's of North Korea love their kids as much as I love mine, then they will impress upon their leadership somehow that most people that come up against the US tend to lose.
As long as the Muslims of North Korea have the intent to kill me and mine, and they continue to prepare and foment and encourage violence against us, then I say we wage war in the only manner known to be effective. It is our responsibility to our own kids that we do this. It is our responsibility to our troops that we kill as many of the enemy as we can without jeopardizing them.
Strategic neutron weapons are perfect for the job, and should be deployed without further delay in Iran (over strategic military installations and nuclear sites) and in North Korea almost everywhere. I think, especially in the case of North Korea, that we have gone far beyond exhausting all diplomatic means of mending fences with them. They simply can't keep a treaty, and we've got long proof of that.
We have the same evidence from Iran.
You're trying to make it a values issue. North Korea has all but declared war against the US, and is putting itself in a position to make good on its promises to cause us harm. That's a policy issue.
As a Christian, we are called upon to do two things.
1. Forgive those who ask forgiveness of us.
2. Turn the other cheek.
We did both of those things. Christianity doesn't require us to forgo the protection of our homes and our families.
We have the right to protect us in the most effective, convenient, and life preserving means possible.
You start, one city at a time in NK, and you bomb one every three days until the Islamic faith surrenders world wide. Until Islam renounces the call to destroy or convert non-believers we must assume that war is declared, and we aren't safe.
The fate of North Korean children and other innocents lie squarely in the hands of the North Koreans. I refuse to pay the price of Seattle or San Diego in exchange for the moral courage to fulfill the principle tenent of the Constitution (provide for the common defense).
I'll wager a paycheck that if we lose a major city to North Korean ballistic missile or other WMD, you'll be one of the people calling for their blood. I'm not prepared to wait for that.
I'll be even more frank. As a party, we are vulnerable on this issue. Talk to soldiers on the ground in the Sunni triangle, and they will tell you we did too good a job invading Baghdad. For the most part, the war didn't cause all of the destruction, horror, and famine that other wars have. Sunni's retain the will to fight.
We may have Iraq, but as long as the enemy, and I'm being extremely specific when I single out Sunni Muslims, retain the will to fight, then the US is still at war.
The Russians learned that the hard way in Afghanistan, and we learned it in Viet Nam.
Victory is the will to do whatever is necessary to drive the will to fight completely out of your enemy.
I can see a Democrat very correctly pointing this out, and calling for precisely what I'm calling for, knowing its only a matter of time before he or (much worse) she is going to be proven prophetic, and possessive of the precise leadership qualities necessary in the aftermath of such a slaughter by virtue of that prescience.
There is a gaping hole in our foreign policy on the issue of assymetrical warfare. Nixon had Detente, Reagan outspent the Russians. The Bush Doctrine doesn't go far enough. "You are with us, or against us, even if you merely support, finance, or even acquiescently permit terrorism." It lacks a policy of disproportional response.
Muslim's say they are ready to die for Allah. I say we systematically and relentlessly test that theory in the next 60 days in North Korea and Iran until Islam declares a cessation of hostilities toward non-belivers world wide.
"If the Muslim's of North Korea "
What Muslims in North Korea? North Koreans worship that bastard dictator, not Allah. I respect your viewpoint here, but think you're seriously misinformed about the North Korean people. They aren't Muslim. Like the Iraqi people before we invaded and overthrew Saddam, they are brutalized by a power-hungry, maniacal dictator. Should we not be invading and freeing North Korea? After all, they possess WMDs and are led by a brutal dictator, both of which were reasons used to go into Iraq.
The NoKos can't even feed themselves, much less muster a revolution to overthrow their idiot dictator. That said, I still don't espouse a "Nuke 'em for the fun of it" attitude, unless we're attacked first. If we nuke them first, we'd only guarantee a similar response to some West Coast American city.
Now, covert ops to take out the dictator - that's a different story.
"I'll wager a paycheck that if we lose a major city to North Korean ballistic missile or other WMD, you'll be one of the people calling for their blood. I'm not prepared to wait for that. "
Keep your paycheck. I've already said - several times - in this thread that I'm 100% for nuclear retaliation.
>> Sorry, but anyone who thinks that detonating nuclear weapons would be "fun" is sick. I'm sure that many Muslims thought that 9-11 was a load of fun too.
I think it would be good foreign policy to nuke North Korean political and military installations. It might even be fun.
I have three words.. HUBBA HUBBA HUBBA
I missed my calling. I'm a copyeditor.
Yep, you just might have missed your calling. We need more copyeditors, less lawyers....
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