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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
by virtue of elimination of the position of devil's advocate, the process has been altered and can no longer validate saints with any assistance of the Holy Spirit

You can provide traditional citations for this, right? Odd, but I thought that the Sovereign Pontiff didn't require the assistance of other persons to issue infallible definitions. Perhaps the "Spirit of vatican II" got rid of the traditional doctrine:

Nevertheless, some of the most reverend fathers, not content with these conditions, go farther and even want to put into this constitution conditions which are found in different ways in different theological treatises and which concern the good faith and diligence of the Pontiff in searching out and enunciating the truth. However, these things, since they concern the conscience of the Pontiff rather than his relation [to the Church], must be considered as touching on the moral order rather than the dogmatic order. For with great care our Lord Jesus Christ willed that the charism of truth depend not on the conscience of the Pontiff, which is private - even most private - to each person, and known to God alone, but rather on the public relation of the Pontiff to the universal Church. If it were otherwise, this gift of infallibility would not be an effective means for preserving and repairing the unity of the Church. But in no way, therefore, should it be feared that the universal Church could be led into error about faith through the bad faith and negligence of the Pontiff. For the protection of Christ and the divine assistance promised to the successors of Peter is a cause so efficacious that the judgment of the supreme Pontiff would be impeded if it were to be erroneous and destructive of the Church; or, if in fact the Pontiff really arrives at a definition, it will truly stand infallibly. (Bishop Vincent Gasser, Relatio on the fourth chapter of the Schema Pastor Aeternus at the First Vatican Council)

60 posted on 12/20/2004 10:04:44 PM PST by gbcdoj ("I acknowledge everyone who is united with the See of Peter" - St. Jerome)
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To: gbcdoj

You can post citations all day and night. It will make no difference.

Rome has rejected the Faith of two millenia. They maintain the structure and the buildings but these new creations are a new religion. The Church is Truth. Truth, by its nature, cannot change. We face one of two scenarios: prelates, including the Pope, have lost jurisdiction due to material heresy, or the See is vacant.

One thing is for certain. The Holy Spirit is no longer safeguarding the hierarchy from error.


65 posted on 12/20/2004 10:14:58 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: gbcdoj

One of the modernist tricks, after all, is to cite preconciliar sources to urge conformity to postconciliar doctrines that would have sent those sources climbing up a wall. Modernists in particular like to cite Pius X or Pius XII--in support of novelties that would have horrified them.

At the same time the very people who do this, trash Trent and the Syllabus of Errors and whatever else preconciliar popes supported. It only works one way, apparently. The New Religion feels no compulsion to honor the past in any way--except when necessary to bring ordinary Catholics into strict obedience with its own false agenda.


110 posted on 12/21/2004 5:19:43 AM PST by ultima ratio
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