Posted on 12/19/2004 7:30:58 AM PST by God defeats Darwin
Police angry over rifle delay Mayor weighs issue of firepower; call it his toughest decision yet Saturday, December 18, 2004 CAROL ROBINSON News staff writer
Birmingham police officers, tired of what they call rhetoric and unfulfilled promises, say they will take their case for carrying high-powered rifles on patrol to City Hall.
"We are outgunned, bottom line," said Birmingham police Sgt. Allen Treadaway, president of the Fraternal Order of Police. "We have got to be able to respond with firepower necessary to do the job." Advertisement
Birmingham police officers for several years have sought to be allowed to carry AR-15s or similar semiautomatic rifles, a step already taken by some departments across the Birmingham area and the nation.
The desire almost reached fever pitch in June when officers Harley Chisolm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen - all armed with handguns - were shot to death with a semi-automatic SKS rifle.
"Here we were out there looking for these guys," Treadaway said of the first responders, "and we were carrying handguns."
Treadaway said Birmingham Police Chief Annetta Nunn signed off on a proposed policy for rifles, but said the proposal has hit a wall in the mayor's office.
Officers said they are frustrated because Kincaid, in June, stood before hundreds of mourning police officers at the memorial service for their three comrades and promised them this: "We want to make sure for those of you who wear the blue, we will provide you with the best equipment available."
The mayor said Friday he's conflicted about the decision. "It is the thorniest issue I've faced in my tenure as mayor."
Kincaid acknowledged the request has been before him since he took office in 1999, and said those demands heightened after the triple killings.
`Political considerations':
Kincaid decided to delay a decision after police officers in August fatally shot Benjamin Griggs, 58, a mentally ill Vietnam War veteran who held police at bay for two hours and fired on officers. A coroner's report showed Griggs was shot 24 times.
The weight of Griggs' death for his friends and family was as heavy, Kincaid said, as the grief officers felt when three colleagues were killed with rifle bullets that pierced their armored vests.
"That community was up in arms. There are political considerations, as well as the safety consideration for officers," Kincaid said.
"One segment of the community feels the police already use too much firepower, another is raising Cain about Tasers in the schools, and I feel the need to equip my officers for their safety."
Treadaway disagreed: "To say there's political ramifications over a man who tried to take a police officer's life, that unfortunately resulted in his death, to compare that with officers who have given their lives to make our community safer, I don't see how you can draw a parallel."
Currently, Birmingham's officers are issued double-action semi-automatic 9mm Beretta pistols. They are allowed to a carry their own semi-automatic handguns if they are properly trained in their use.
Most police tactical units, including Birmingham's, already carry rifles.
Policy drafted:
The drafted rifle policy, completed in July, calls for officers to be allowed to carry a Colt AR-15 M-4 Carbine, a Bushmaster XM-15 A-2 Carbine or a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. Each officer who chooses to carry a rifle would first have to complete the necessary training and qualification program.
The policy also calls for officers to keep rifles in cases secured in the trunks of the patrol cars until a dangerous situation arises, such as a high-risk felony traffic stop or an armed robbery in progress.
"This is not a situation of officers walking around with military-type weapons on their side," Treadaway said. "It's a matter of letting them put a tool in their toolbox so they can do their jobs."
Kincaid said he has asked the Alabama League of Municipalities to research the policies of similar-sized cities and give him a report.
"It's an issue I don't take lightly," Kincaid said. "I'm trying to arrive at the right decision."
What others do:
In Mountain Brook, police officers who have qualified with rifles may check out the department-owned weapons at the beginning of their shifts. "We've been doing it for some time, at least a couple of years," Chief Johnny Stanley said.
Hoover police officers also can carry the rifles. They may choose between city-issued weapons or their own rifles, as long as they have qualified.
Homewood police patrol supervisors are issued rifles, but not patrol officers, who may carry shotguns on duty.
In Leeds, the city hasn't provided funding for patrol rifles, but officers who have qualified to use the guns and want to carry their own are allowed to do so with department approval.
"I'm a strong believer in it," said Chief Tony Hudson. "Every police officer should have access to a rifle for those situations where we're outgunned."
Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale in October gave his deputies the choice to carry approved rifles, and he encouraged Kincaid to follow.
"He must trust the chief on this," Hale said. "I would encourage all policymakers to consider this. It's just the environment of crime fighting and it makes sense for law enforcement to carry this type firepower."
Birmingham City Councilman Joel Montgomery asked other council members in a memo Friday to allow police union representatives and officers to speak at Tuesday's meeting.
E-mail: crobinson@bhamnews.com
My AR-10, .308cal - 7.62 x 51mm uses the NATO round ammo; good explanation here:
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_762mm.php
and
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
A few months ago, a Jeep Wrangler was hit in the rear by a semi on I-83, here in the York, PA, area, and it exploded, incinerating the drive and passenger from MD. Other than that one, I haven't heard of any additionals. But you're right, the tank is clearly visible from the rear and exposed.
This is my 3rd Grand Cherokee LTD: '88, '94 and now '02. I will probably go to another SUV, next time, as I don't like Daimler-Chrysler products, anymore.
Have you SERIOUSLY wrung that AR10 out? I mean fire those 200 rounds over a ten minute period? I don't trust my AR10.
I've fired off 400 (20 x 20-round mags) inside of 10mins, the day after buying it, and run off 100-500 each session, since.
Never had a FTF - have with my AR-15s and Glocks - or with my Kimber .45cal.
Why don't you *trust* your AR-10? Ka-Booms?
http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html
FTE, FTF.
I bought a new infantry weight upper...same problems. Sent it back to the factory. SEESM to be running OK now, but I would NOT bank my butt on that rifle.
I'm hoping to find a less expensive magazine solution, too.
6 more years and I can retire. But I'll probably go in 8.
And, I am well, still working two full time jobs but still well.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Yeah, we've had them for years. Our steel mill bought them for the PD years ago. They sold a few of them but I believe we still have 3.
With all due respect, if the situation's serious enough that it warrants breaking out the rifles or shotguns, I agree with Massad Ayoob - I want civilians alarmed and scared away into cover by their appearance.
I agree about the two officer patrols, but I do realize that doing so halves the number of patrol units per shift.
I'm not as familiar with shotguns as I should be - what's the performance of 12 or 20 ga. slugs against Bad Guys' body armor? In the city, where I just moved away from last month, I could see rifle round overpenetration being a real problem. Out here where I am now it's much less of an issue.
Last time I checked, cops do not have to worry about law abiding citizens carrying AR-15's and trying to take them out.
However, they do have to worry about CRIMINALS with weapons stronger than they are issued trying to kill them.
You have a bitch with gun laws, take it out on the politicians who pass them, not the police who's job it is to enforce the laws idiotic pols pass.
Shoot out with FBI agents in Miami leading to the death of I believe 2 agents.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
LA Bankrobbery shootout
http://www.emergency.com/lapdbank.htm
There's two and the criminals did much more than look stupid and bleed to death.
People forget or just don't know that the police in Hollywood had to "borrow" guns from a local gun shop to protect themselves against the robbers.
Sad when our LEO's don't have the weapons they need to do their jobs.
As most LEO patrols are reactionary in method these days the 2 man unit makes sense to me.....but that's just me. There will be pros and cons to every scenerio that are valid so it a call for the individual department to make IMHO.
As to a slug....It will not punch a threat level IIIA NIJ rated vest , yet will break ribs and make the person hit wish they were dead.
Head shots with 00 Buck .......potential for stopping the threat is "better" but not a sure thang !
Stay safe !
I've only owned one Jeep, a small Comanche pickup. It wasn't too bad of a vehicle, but I ended up trading it in for a bigger truck with more power. Most of the trucks I've owned have been full-size Chevy's with reliable and powerful (enough) 350 engines. Luckily, I've had few problems with them.
I also owned a 1976 4-wheel drive Dodge Power Wagon pickup. It was O.K., but the 318 wasn't as powerful as a 350, and it sucked about the same amount of gas, so I got rid of it. Two weeks after I sold it, the rear differential went out. The guy had it sitting by the road in front of the shop, when some lady ran off the road and totalled it. I dodged (pun intended) a bullet that time, and the buyer lucked out too.
Although I like the looks of Dodge and Ford trucks, and Jeep vehicles, I just can't seem to talk myself into buying one. Chrysler products finally got the styling down (they used to be UGLY - remember the Aries K?), but they still seem to use cheaper hardware (even the plastic components seem like they're made of CHEAP plastic, and often are used where steel or some other metal should be used). Jeeps don't look to me to be safely engineered, and the two Fords I've owned seemed to always have something breaking or malfunctioning. Just my experience with them. I've had the most luck with Chevy, so I stick with them.
Good luck when you go to buy a different SUV.
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