Posted on 12/19/2004 7:30:58 AM PST by God defeats Darwin
Police angry over rifle delay Mayor weighs issue of firepower; call it his toughest decision yet Saturday, December 18, 2004 CAROL ROBINSON News staff writer
Birmingham police officers, tired of what they call rhetoric and unfulfilled promises, say they will take their case for carrying high-powered rifles on patrol to City Hall.
"We are outgunned, bottom line," said Birmingham police Sgt. Allen Treadaway, president of the Fraternal Order of Police. "We have got to be able to respond with firepower necessary to do the job." Advertisement
Birmingham police officers for several years have sought to be allowed to carry AR-15s or similar semiautomatic rifles, a step already taken by some departments across the Birmingham area and the nation.
The desire almost reached fever pitch in June when officers Harley Chisolm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen - all armed with handguns - were shot to death with a semi-automatic SKS rifle.
"Here we were out there looking for these guys," Treadaway said of the first responders, "and we were carrying handguns."
Treadaway said Birmingham Police Chief Annetta Nunn signed off on a proposed policy for rifles, but said the proposal has hit a wall in the mayor's office.
Officers said they are frustrated because Kincaid, in June, stood before hundreds of mourning police officers at the memorial service for their three comrades and promised them this: "We want to make sure for those of you who wear the blue, we will provide you with the best equipment available."
The mayor said Friday he's conflicted about the decision. "It is the thorniest issue I've faced in my tenure as mayor."
Kincaid acknowledged the request has been before him since he took office in 1999, and said those demands heightened after the triple killings.
`Political considerations':
Kincaid decided to delay a decision after police officers in August fatally shot Benjamin Griggs, 58, a mentally ill Vietnam War veteran who held police at bay for two hours and fired on officers. A coroner's report showed Griggs was shot 24 times.
The weight of Griggs' death for his friends and family was as heavy, Kincaid said, as the grief officers felt when three colleagues were killed with rifle bullets that pierced their armored vests.
"That community was up in arms. There are political considerations, as well as the safety consideration for officers," Kincaid said.
"One segment of the community feels the police already use too much firepower, another is raising Cain about Tasers in the schools, and I feel the need to equip my officers for their safety."
Treadaway disagreed: "To say there's political ramifications over a man who tried to take a police officer's life, that unfortunately resulted in his death, to compare that with officers who have given their lives to make our community safer, I don't see how you can draw a parallel."
Currently, Birmingham's officers are issued double-action semi-automatic 9mm Beretta pistols. They are allowed to a carry their own semi-automatic handguns if they are properly trained in their use.
Most police tactical units, including Birmingham's, already carry rifles.
Policy drafted:
The drafted rifle policy, completed in July, calls for officers to be allowed to carry a Colt AR-15 M-4 Carbine, a Bushmaster XM-15 A-2 Carbine or a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. Each officer who chooses to carry a rifle would first have to complete the necessary training and qualification program.
The policy also calls for officers to keep rifles in cases secured in the trunks of the patrol cars until a dangerous situation arises, such as a high-risk felony traffic stop or an armed robbery in progress.
"This is not a situation of officers walking around with military-type weapons on their side," Treadaway said. "It's a matter of letting them put a tool in their toolbox so they can do their jobs."
Kincaid said he has asked the Alabama League of Municipalities to research the policies of similar-sized cities and give him a report.
"It's an issue I don't take lightly," Kincaid said. "I'm trying to arrive at the right decision."
What others do:
In Mountain Brook, police officers who have qualified with rifles may check out the department-owned weapons at the beginning of their shifts. "We've been doing it for some time, at least a couple of years," Chief Johnny Stanley said.
Hoover police officers also can carry the rifles. They may choose between city-issued weapons or their own rifles, as long as they have qualified.
Homewood police patrol supervisors are issued rifles, but not patrol officers, who may carry shotguns on duty.
In Leeds, the city hasn't provided funding for patrol rifles, but officers who have qualified to use the guns and want to carry their own are allowed to do so with department approval.
"I'm a strong believer in it," said Chief Tony Hudson. "Every police officer should have access to a rifle for those situations where we're outgunned."
Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale in October gave his deputies the choice to carry approved rifles, and he encouraged Kincaid to follow.
"He must trust the chief on this," Hale said. "I would encourage all policymakers to consider this. It's just the environment of crime fighting and it makes sense for law enforcement to carry this type firepower."
Birmingham City Councilman Joel Montgomery asked other council members in a memo Friday to allow police union representatives and officers to speak at Tuesday's meeting.
E-mail: crobinson@bhamnews.com
The Mayor of Birmingham is an idiot.
The desire almost reached fever pitch in June when officers Harley Chisolm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen - all armed with handguns - were shot to death with a semi-automatic SKS rifle.
Those dang SKS rifles, up and shooting cops all by themselves, again.
And so should citizens.
--aside from the rifle "issue" , a mayor with a brain would be in order---
And so should citizens.
In Texas we do. :)
I think it was either Boxer or Feinstein who said these types of weapons have only one purpose- to kill a lot of people.
So by saying the police need these readily available, are they saying the police need to be able to kill lots of people at a moments notice?
They don't need a rifle they actually need a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Anyone who has ever been to most parts of Birmingham would only feel safe with a .50 caliber machine gun. And yes the mayor is an idiot.
"Each officer who chooses to carry a rifle would first have to complete the necessary training and qualification program."
Uh are you insinuating that it's the 'citizens' of Birmingham that are dangerous? If you are, how dare you, those are VOTERS you're talking about. /sarcasm
Ok seriously, doesn't BPD have 12ga Remingtons in their squad cars? If not, that IS ridiculous.
But,.....but.......
Aren't those among the dangerous and deadly assault rifles we need to get off the streets?
(Where's the term "assault rifles" in this article, by the way?)
I also agree with you that if a firearm of this type is considered a "tool" for cops, it should also be considered as such for all law-abiding citizens. THAT also needs to be kept in mind by politicians that will no doubt whine and bleat the next time a criminal or crazy goes on a shooting rampage with one of these type of weapons.
If they aren't going to try and take these "tools" away from police that are "outgunned", even after such an unfortunate and horrible incident, then they need to forget trying to take them away from us.
Wishful thinking, I know. Whatever happens, I'm willing to give my guns up ONLY if they are willing to accept them LEAD FIRST.
Here in Penna we do, too. I carry an Armalite (.308cal) AR-10 w/ 10 20-round mags and Leupold glass, in the rear of my Jeep Grand Cherokee. And a Kimber 'Eclipse Target II' 1911A1 .45cal ACP, on my hip.
If it took 24 hits (presumably with a 9mm) to stop this guy, I seriously doubt the .223 Remington is the "magic bullet" they seem to be looking for. Personally, I think they'd be better off with the M1 .30 Carbine over the AR-15/.223.
Benjamin Griggs, 58, a mentally ill Vietnam War veteran who held police at bay for two hours...three colleagues were killed with rifle bullets that pierced their armored vests
Arming officers with a .223 won't change the fact that Kevlar soft body armor will not stop a centerfire rifle round.
Screw the AR-15.
Get a REAL rifle, an M-14. That'll take out any bad guy with an SKS.
It's that physics thingy, F=ma
In English, .308 beats .223 OR the SKS 7.62x39 (however personally I'd rather have the 7.62x39 than a wimpy .223)
Please no Flaming, I just don't like 'little' bullets or the concept behind the M-16 as a main battle rifle, i.e.; wound one enemy and then you take three people out of the fight. That concept only works when your enemy isn't a member of a death cult.
And please don't mention the Kevlar/rifle bullet matter. Ted Kennedy will read it and go on another BAN ALL RIFLE ammo cr@p again. (joking)
I've got a Kimber Tactical Custom II .45 and think it is a great pistol. I'm also considering buying an Armalite .308. I don't like Bushmaster's use of FAL mags, and I don't like the bolt release they use. How do you like the Armalite?
Too bad they gave you a crappy Jeep Grand Cherokee with the bulging, below the bumper, exploding gas tank. Then again, hasn't the Ford Crown Vic been noted as having an exploding gas tank of its own?
Those are a couple of good reasons to drive a Chevy truck like I've got.
By the way officer, thanks for your service. I went to high school in Pittsburgh, and my sister still lives there. I'm a former Marine, who like many Marines, has either become, or thought about becoming a police officer. I'm in the second category, but I do appreciate what you guys do every day.
Merry Christmas.
The police in Bagdad had the same complaint, but I hesitate to compare the two.
the AR-15's are in stock. . they just cannot issue them until the same number of black balaclavas are available . . .
/sarcasm
I agree that the 7.62 is a much better round, but most types of .308 AR-type weapons will outshoot a comparably sized (short-barreled) M1-A/M-14 anyday, AND, since many cops are former military and already trained with an M-16, it just makes sense to equip them with what they already know. The AR weapons are easier to handle (ergonomically speaking) also. The modular nature of the AR family also allows much more customization, and/or fitting-out for different missions. The AR is also much easier for individuals, other than an armorer, to repair. The M1-A/M-14 weapons are good weapons, but an AR in the same caliber is much better, in my opinion.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.